Featured Hot Rods Engineering nightmare

Again, none of the parts shown arrived at their current modified state as a result of anything resembling engineering.

Those parts were reworked.

No recalled part is reengineered, or reworked. They are destroyed, and replaced.

Engineering is a laborious process, done by people with degrees, certifications, bonds, and insurance.

Words, and professional ***les have meaning.

 

I'm spared this argument, where I am we have inspections which are on the same level as a Japanese Shaken. That sort of thing will get me thrown out of the inspector's workshop without "by your leave". And if I modify a car in this way (not that I would, that's just laziness combined with stupidity) and it causes an accident, I'm in a word of hurt because it voids the insurance.

So nope.

 

You don't always need an engineering degree to realize that something has been done poorly and is quite possibly dangerous. Any time you weaken a part, especially an important part that your life might rely on, its not a good choice.

As someone who has "gone against the group" many times on the HAMB, I want to ***ure you that my belief that this was a poorly chosen way to make something work, is based solely on my own personal observation. Maybe others "jump on board", but you might want to consider that maybe some/all actually believe that its a poor and dangerous solution...........and they want to insure that others are aware of the danger.

I believe in a lot of things I don't understand, but I do vaguely understand that weakening some parts to make them fit is usually a poor choice..........especially if your life and other peoples lives may be affected by it. Its not "group speak" , its honest concern that makes me speak out here.

I hope you take this in a positive manner, because my experience in life and building things has taught me to always err on the side of "overkill" when constructing things.


(Been there......done that ^^^^^^
"when you believe in things you don't understand".
You have to weigh the risk vs the reward........

 

It is a very nice and well made notch

 

Anyone wanna do an egghead calculation and figure out how many pounds of force go thru steering? Think about a 2800lb car hitting a hole, a bump, or an unavoidable obstacle at 40 MPH. Or, how about an emergency maneuver at a freeway speed? Rolling down smooth blacktop at all times isn't realistic is it? If one considers such things during a build, is that too much worry? Just sayin, and I don't care how nice it was notched or that they sell such stuff. Not me...

 

I believe there is a vast amount of knowledge offered on the HAMB. And some real opinion fueling it.

And I do respect that, I just happen to disagree.No harm no foul.

How about you measure the end of your old Ford pitman arm, a tie rod diameter, the stud on a ball joint, the U Bolts? Ge whiz, it doesn't take more explanation. I have yet to see a matching part without a groove posted yet here we are. How about this picture, tensile test. You really need to suggest the gloom and doom that would cause even modern cars to have part failure and breakage?

 

I won't tell you about the brake swing arm mounted to my plywood firewall on my Willys, made from the stamped sheet metal running board bracket off my frame. 17yrs old when I came up with that great idea!

 

There is no wonder not many hot rods are getting built these days, everything has to be approved by the safety comity. We can't do anything our selves, it has to p*** engineering first.

Above all, don't post pictures of anything you do, or pay to have done, on your ride, unless you have the proper ***le or certification that says you can do such things.

I jest, sort of.

 

I hit an unavoidable obstacle (a car that turned in front of me) with my right front tire of my 2500lb truck at less than 40 mph. This was my GM Vega box after, as well as quite a bit of other bent steering/suspension parts.


Gary

 

My grandfathers take on building things for other people. If you build it twice as strong as it needs to be, it will last half as long as it should.

 

Factor in the length of the steering arm, and ***ume that everything else is immovable.

Over one meter, in 2-miliaseconds, that is 201,272.5715 pounds of force.

That is roughly 100-tons.

Put that steering arm in a 100-ton press, and see what you get.

Put it on a car, and you could get dead.

 

That comment pretty well explains why you have the opinion you have.‍
Hitting a pothole on a crowded highway at 60-70 mph could add more stress to the part than you think, and the consequences could be horrific.
Really easy to make the right decision at build time than to deal with a bad decision when it is all too late. It's called "taking responsibility for your actions".

 

Can argue all day if it was “good enough”, but as most have stated, not the preferred approach that should have been taken. As a mech Eng, I can approve this though. lol! Some real attention to detail there.

 

The Super Bell arms are drop forged and are not notched for a zerk. It's safe to say they did not (over) design the part manufactured size to 200% to accommodate for an end user to notch them.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...DfrniufDmuQEJOFC_oYE_i04WvX-zx7X8-RN_UxFf8o_h[/QUOTE]

 

I very well may scare easy, I was involved in an accident on a 1956 Harley-Davidson, the bike looked good and I thought the builder did a first cl*** job, but he did some sketchy work on the springer front suspension parts, 60 MPH is the wrong time for something to break, I have a gimp leg due to something being modified and it weaked the part, thus I ended up in the hospital, fortunately not Forset Lawn.

I would have changed the part just like the OP did. HRP

 

The run-to figure in my imagination was like 10 to 20, but I think the point is made.

@blue 49 I think that sector shaft has a lot to say too. It isn't fear to consider **** like this, it's smart. And above all it's responsible and disciplined. These aren't go-karts with Maytag motors in junior high. Just sayin...

 

Come on guys, lighten up. They say a picture is worth a thousand words.



.

 

Starting somewhere...

You pull that out of a hat? Quote a source for those numbers? What are you trying to say exactly, could you explain what you said for some of us that didn't quite understand it? I mean, it doesn't take 100 ton to bend that arm, flatten it most likely, 50k psi will; do it.

[/QUOTE]

Ok, that's cool, but I don't see dropped forged I see a cast part. Cast steel and machined. I say that because the Super Bell lettering appears to be raised and I see casting marks. No matter, you showed a reproduction part and we were previously shown another repo part with notches in them? That just means a little more work if you must dis***emble to add more grease I guess?

Springer front end, 60 miles an hour...let me guess, one of those give it a triple tree neck rake and extend the fork length? Sorry for your limp. But what does it prove, buddy who built your bike couldn't weld or he ground a part excessively and you paid the price? How old were you at the time? Was there any booze or drugs involved? Running the interstate or back roads of small town USA? Relevance is what I was getting at past you paid the price for sketchy back in the day.
And to clarify, the OP changed it because he switched sides with his steering and then he questioned its fitness and condition for service.

I think 10 to 20 is still a bit on the high side, but hey, seems it's as good a guess as any in this conversation.
And while we aren't talking go carts and maytag motors, the sensible discussion should follow along the lines of what's the calculated force required and being placed on the arm, and the surface it mounts to as well the bolts holding it in place.

So...do we need a bigger steering wheel or a smaller one so we don't exert as much force? One or the other has to make it safer don't you think? Or should we just weld it up, grind it off and remove the zirk? Would that be better, be enough? Safe to use? If you didn't know would it hurt you?
Anyone keeping score on who would or wouldn't use it? Because if we are taking a tally, I would. My opinion hasn't been swayed by your opinions or fearful beliefs.




Anyhow...Not my job to convince you. Believe what you want.

 

No.

I spend 12-years in Engineering school to be able to do these calculations in my head.

My work has been trusted and verified by numerous major manufacturers, and even more minor ones.

I am not telling you how much force it will take to bend that damaged arm. I am telling you how much force will be exerted on it, under the requested conditions, at the peak of the impact.

As you have gathered, it is substantially higher than what would take to cause it to fail.

It is an order of magnitude higher than the peak guess.

Oh, and The Buddha never said that. That is an example of confirmation bias, which is universally accepted to be flawed thinking.

 

Instead of basing your opinion on an advertising picture; take a look at the second picture of the first post; pretty plain to see by the wide parting line and stamped in brand name that SB arms are forged as advertised.

Anybody with any sense would address the zerk issue in a different manner than that notch.

 

I see something like this notch and what I actually see is a job that was done by someone with tunnel vision and one goal, get it done and fast.

Regarding the notch, is the part thru forged?

 

Far be it for me to question someone who spent 12 years in Engineering school, but I'm not intimidated by it either or rather enough to not say, "show me the math equation and calculation and what information you used to come to that conclusion". And with all due respect, nor will I bow down and kiss the ring if that's what you think should come from providing it.
As for the words of Buddha, no he didn't actually say that. But it fit, it was questioned.
Google "did buddha say believe nothing quote".

Instead of? That is the one being commented on because it was used to show us, or show me, one without a notch. Also, I would expect, even suggest, that what the pictures shows is what you actually get to buy these days. And from the Speedway picture, it doesn't appear to be, nor is it advertised that it's forged. Forged being a stronger product, the OP picture showing a indented logo stamping, sure, call it forged. The Speedway one, I'm not convinced it is.
As far as sense goes, common or otherwise, I still don't see it as a point of extreme concern. There is at least an equal amount of material as there is in the diameter of the bolt anchoring it. And the original shows no sign of deformation to suggest movement.
In regards to a different manner, would a 90 degree zerk instead of the 45 degree zerk and a smaller notch make a difference? Or leave it out, no groove slot or notch, plug the king pin grease hole and call it greased for life being the only solution that's going to make sense? Everybody happy?

 

Static strength is still pretty good for sure. However this is a dynamically loaded part so fatigue becomes a consideration. Fatigue strength considers stress being applied, removed, applied, removed, etc. over time. This strength is much less than static strength. That becomes even more problematic when you put a notch or reduction in cross section in a fatigued part. Stress is calculated as pounds of force applied to square inches of cross section or PSI. Reduce the cross section of a part and the stress concentrates at that point. The ultimate worst design is a shape with a sharp step in cross section. A sharp step has zero area so stress approaches infinite PSI!! The notch in the subject part has a large radius which is good. But if it was cut with a grinding stone and not polished, the scratches from the stone have zero area so there would still be a dangerous stress riser in that area.

All that being said, that part is probably ok, should get you to Sonic Drive-In every Saturday night and back home for the duration.

 

Bad designs come from manufacturers too. One common modification on a popular hot rod front axle, not to be named, is to eliminate a strut rod included in the original factory design. This strut rod is considered ugly on a street rod so some companies sell designs without the support. One of my personal tasks when attending rod runs was to point out cracks in the suspension on guy's cars due to using strut rod eliminators.

 

Not quite apples and apples. The modified part has an unsupported stress riser in the form of a full cross section notch. The other part pictured has a notch but is more ****ogous to a hole drilled in a frame than a notch cut in a frame. The notch is bordered by a 'flange' that can absorb most of the dynamic stresses, ****ogous to the flange on an I-beam or the flanges on a C-section frame rail. Holes cut into the I-beam or C-section center plates do not weaken them appreciably.

I still would try to come up with a solution that didn't reduce the cross section of that part!

 

Ok, I'm gonna bring the milk crate/coffee/garage echo mood back into this.

@NoelC is declared the biggest ****. His unwavering dedication to "...**** it, get it done..." is notable. It is without doubt he deserves the COB certificate (crabby old *******s) in this ¼ of HAMBdom for 2025. The cert states, "We the unwilling seen by the unknowing, are preaching the impossible to the unfaithful. We've said so much about so little for so long, we're now qualified to say anything about nothing."

May these words ring true a****st the parts and aromas in shops and garages everywhere.

[Suddenly the compressor stopped and Joey wasn't grinding. Freddie and Zack had the part, one sez "...well it IS part of the steering so..." and they were walking back to the axle. Just then a faint bell rang in the distance, a sound akin to an Asian ceremonial gong. Shop was quiet for a moment. Hank farted loudly, Jack says "Dammit Hank, your voice changed but your breath didn't!" Lee says "Hey, sounds like he's still a virgin!" The shop erupted in laughter as Lee was ready to fire up his coupe. The universe was in balance again.]

 

Engineering (at least in Canada) is likely the only profession that does not require you to be licensed. The only engineering field you were required to have a licence was civil engineering. Although I obtained my licence (Professional Engineers of Ontario), and had it my whole career (30 plus yrs), I was never required to have it to do any “engineering”.

 

Noel, you seem to ***ume a lot, the builder of my bike was not my buddy, the neck on the frame was not altered in any way and the springer front end was stone stock, what it proves is that someone that lacks the knowledge to try and modify a bearing can get you killed, taking a part that has met all the criteria required to manufacture said part.

When a bearing locks up on the front wheel of a motorcycle wants to turn but the bearing and spoke are being ripped out and the bike ang goes into a death wabble.

Why does it matter how old I was but to satisfy your
curiosity I was 24 at the time and there was absolutly no drugs or alcohol involved and I was on a back road on my way home from work. HRP

 

great way to bring this back down!