I have a question or would like to understanding on Land Speed Roadster A's & threw 34s I finally walk to mailbox to get the H -U annual , I started flipping threw Reading here & there , I caught details /Spec's of B***'s 199 roadster When I read seen mention of 3k hp I started thinking why so much Hp I did some looking around & I did not find what I think I was looking for. Why so much Hp , In article if correct It mentions the roadster been 260ish 2025 , goal to go 300 mph , Roaster I would think weight 4,000pd? Does it take 3,000 hp to go 300 mph ? I would think 1,000 -1,5000 hp Gearing maybe Lenco 5 or 4 with OD Or B&J ? Then In last few days thread was started then moved to OT George Lange '32 Ford roadster, Double duty ,really triple . Street , Drag , Land speed The article that @Just Gary posted Say in 2001 went little over 200 mph To make the Club , Both roadster small cid engines under 400 cid Nitro & Blower. B***'s roadster I would think 800 -1,000 pds heaver ? George Lange roadster, just @ time a average Hot Rod maybe 1,000-1,200 hp thoe 298 cid Turbo's Compared to B***'s Not bashing B***'s roaster Wanting to know over 3-5 mile course "do not know for sure" Either car Why does it take so much Hp , not more about gearing .
to go twice as fast, you need eight (8) times the power. If your 200 HP car can top out at 120 MPH, you would need 1600 HP to top out at 240 MPH.
I might been asking question in the wrong way what I was trying to find out In searching thinking I thought of a Nascar truck @ Daytona pretty much same Air resistance of non fender 32 & close to same weight , truck minimum of 3,400 pd driver /fueled . Off pits road @ 45 mph then on track coming back to flag 2.5 miles to make a qualifying run , Mph around 170 with 700 ish hp @ crank , qualifying run 180 ish . Then searching thinking I was thinking 700 hp that a typical 32 roadster body no fenders @ 3,000 pounds to run 185- 215 mph Then a more stream line 32 & heaver I was thinking 1,700 hp for 260-280 Was mention possible average with 1,500 hp
Not so sure about your NASTRUCK vs Deuce aero comparison, my guess is those trucks are much better than a deuce, but I don't have the numbers. Aero loads become THE thing once you get above about 165. Back in the 60's, Isky built a wild blown SBC and put it into 3 different Bonneville cars. My memory is fuzzy on it, but I think the cars were a typical fenderless Ford roadster, a '53 Studebaker, and a Bonneville belly tank lakester (?). Same motor produced roughly a 20 MPH faster result for each car. The long slippery track surface provides much time to build speed, so the weight becomes a benefit to aid acceleration, just like when you try to accelerate on snow. However, because that weight does need to get rolling, it is helpful to have an abundance of power for accelerating the heavy weight, as well as the horrendous aero load. Most of the over 200 MPH roadsters are between 4,000 and 5,000 lbs. The ***mins-Beck-Davidson 911 car (originally Les Leggitt powered) has been over 300 MPH and weighs 6,200 lbs! I went out to talk to Les Leggitt a few years before he p***ed. The guy wrote the book on 300 MPH powerplants. His program was basically a big show John Force style Hemi configured to survive 2 1/2 minutes of hammer time. Les figures he was making about 5,000 HP in their current Studebaker, and that's the same basic recipe he had in the 911 roadster, It take power!
@mohr hp Just for a reference to compare to I contacted a LSR roadster racer , his information close to same what I was thinking .. 3,000 to 4,000 pounds The Calculator I used I based off 1/4 et of 9.73 & weight of 3,200 pds B***'s car might be in the 5 -6,000 pds I went to B***'s web page , I did not see any information on the 199 roadster If & more likely 5-6k weight I can understand 3k hp ,I was think 4 k when I posted @ first . Now I am curious about the small CID's I am thinking to keep Rpm's in 8-9k
“F” (183”) roadsters in the blown fuel cl*** run 260+ mph. The Toyota 2JZ’s easily make 1100 hp and some tuned to 1500+. It will always be horsepower and traction. Today the smaller displacement engines are more powerful than the earlier large displacement of years past.
I always though the answer was gearing until I discovered that wind resistance goes up by the square of speed. Moving the air out of the way takes an enormous amount of HP. If you look at required HP to move a vehicle you have to factor in internal friction, rolling resistance and wind resistance. If you graph speed against required HP you will see that rolling resistance and internal friction go up proportionally with speed, but wind resistance does not. It starts to shoot up around 50 mph and just keeps climbing; again by the square of speed.
The average elevation of the Bonneville salt flats is around 4215 ft. That alone requires a lot more power than running at sea level. Add in that pushing that fenderless 32 through the air is like shoving a brick air flow wise. There are a lot of bodies that that same engine and drive train combo would go a lot faster in just because of air flow. That's one of the fun things at Bonneville though. It isn't always how fast you can go but how you manage to go fast. A lot of guys with fast street cars that go to the World of speed to run in the 130/150 mile cl***es find out that out on the salt their cars have a hard time going as fast as they did back home especally carbed cars that don't adjust to al***ude changes on their own and the fact that running on the salt isn't the same as running on a smooth paved road.
A typical gas highboy roadster at Bonneville. about 500 hp to run 200 mph in 3 miles, weight about 3800 lbs, like the other guys are saying the horsepower goes up at 4 times the speed.
Thank you for replies I am just thinking , Not plaining to LSR , Some time back looked into, seen some interesting unique technology and builds , Trying to understand Science & mathematical & what it takes , & curious about & other form's of racing. @jimmy six I am aware of the 2J , I am a no one Tinker around 2014 I learn of 2J by setting watching one of those unrealistic Fast and furious movie with my nephew and cousin, they where about 14, They started saying You need one of those 2Jz for your 32 5w non chop fender's , I was like sure Bla Bla I said bad enough Chevy , Mopar in a Fords . Later that night I started looking up spec's , with in week one was on a boat from Japan ,@ that time I was probably one of the first to have a 2J in pre war & in a steel 32 Street H-R with right hand drive was in plains , tuner's that I had confidence in not local 8-10 month's out , a few here seen 32 & engine combo. Mid 60's looking 315 drag R's 5.70's 1/8 D-D the tuner's local wanted do more then I wanted & make name for there self ,No I seen to many engines blown up by those T's . Engine under shelf with others. @jaracer Pushing air Back in 90's I had a big nose Pet Loaded would run little over 100 Things different then after 9 or 10 No one on Interstate there was a hand full that did same night run's . I wonder how big the air pocket / wake was if able to see with eye . The around 50 mph , I have destination I travel to with two options One interstate straight 35 miles @ 75 ish mph The other US 1 , 25,35, 45 ,55 mph with around 20ish or so stop & go about 3 mpg better then Straight down Interstate, If you where to ask me witch use's less fuel I would say Interstate , & I have several different vehicles Newest 2000 s10 Square body's & 91's style & 96 . I had a 30 A sedan full fender's No chop 32 shell was caught in heavy rain , no wipers @ a stop rain covering windshield , wants over 35 mph No rain , I was surprised , & what little rain drops that Blew up off engine No hood beaded up Want's above 35 acted like a rounded taper windshield until dry , Just weird how air flows & vacuum
I'll try to tackle some of your questions. The article in Hop Up is correct on what we conservatively estimate the horsepower the little "300ci" D-cl*** engine is making currently. This estimate is based on a lot of factors, but the most simple comparison is that it is based on one of the same engine platforms that is currently being run successfully in the NHRA Hot Rod Heritage Series, Nostalgia Top Fuel Dragster category. The winning engine combo for the last few years is a 392 Hemi based on a Rodeck billet block, with AJPE heads, 6-71 blower, and a maximum 21 GPM fuel pump. It's estimated that these engines produce around 3500hp, with the ability to run up to 100% nitromethane. We have essentially the same engine in my roadster, except it is de-stroked to 296ci to fit into the "D" engine category as specified by the SCTA. You might think...well, with such a smaller cubic inch engine it can't make nearly as much power....but you would be wrong. We have no limit on nitro percentage, but we also can run a larger blower, and a larger fuel pump. If you understand modern top fuel, then you understand that the fuel pump alone is a key difference. So again, 3000 hp is a conservative estimate. If we "hop it up" and get the tune-up right, it could make considerably more HP. The shorter stroke seems that it almost doesn't matter in this scenario. Regarding weight...a heavy roadster at Bonneville is a necessity if you are running in the ROADSTER cl*** (/BFR, /FR, /BGR, /GR). By rule, you cannot add or use any aerodynamic devices such as a wing. So the only way to create additional downforce to keep the car on the ground and the rear tires from spinning is by adding ballast to a car that was hopefully built heavier than the typical roadster from the start. Here is some first-hand info for comparison: I first ran my car with an "unblown" F-cl*** engine, based on a Rodeck 392 Hemi...but only ran 4 cylinders to get 178 ci. This engine on 100% nitro set a new F/FR record of 212.301 mph...8 mph higher than the existing record that was set a couple years prior in 2021 by a roadster running a Roush-built Mercedes 6cyl on 10% nitro. I know for a fact that roadster weighed approx. 4000 lbs, and had been in the wind tunnel no less than 5 times. My roadster with the 4-banger weighed 3800 lbs. I calculated that it made 810hp to the rear wheels to run that speed, but it actually most likely made approx. 1000 hp at the crankshaft at max RPM. For a naturally aspirated 3 liter engine, that is a lot of power. And it needed every bit of it to go 212 mph over the full 5 miles. I would leave the push truck and put my foot on the floor and hold the throttle wide open until I pulled the 'chutes. The B&J 3 speed transmission is air-shifted, so I don't lift to shift. Now, I haven't had my car in a wind tunnel, but I'm pretty confident that it's about as aerodynamically "efficient" as probably any other '28-29 Model A that has run in the roadster cl***...as efficient as a brick in the wind, in other words. It took about 1000 crank horsepower to go 212 mph on a pretty decent course (on the salt). The other cars that are eligible for the roadster cl*** also have some pluses and minuses when it comes to aerodynamics...but in my opinion the smaller frontal area of a '28-29 roadster is an advantage over the larger '32-36 bodies that can be run in the cl***. There are some non-Ford roadsters that are also eligible, but ultimately they are all pretty similar when it comes to coefficient of drag. You'll note that I am only talking about the SCTA ROADSTER cl***, and not the modified roadster, rear engine modified roadster, or street roadster cl***es that have different rules and different combinations that work better for those rules. To go faster into the 200s and overcome the aerodynamic "wall", you need more traction, and more horsepower. There are formulas and equations that can spit out theoretical numbers that are required to go a certain speed...but at Bonneville, "theoretical cars only set theoretical records." (I forget who said that, but the more I race out there the more I understand it.) The fact of the matter is that the force required to overcome the aerodynamic drag increases exponentially as the speed increases. So the horsepower line on the graph doesn't track on the same line as MPH...as MPH increases the horsepower has to climb much faster to overcome drag. The more drag you have, the more HP you need to go faster. Gearing also plays a huge role, and you need the HP to turn the higher ratios when you have more drag. Anyway, my car is now considerably heavier after adding more ballast, and has approx. 3 times the horsepower. It also is now in the D/BFR cl*** which has an SCTA record of 241.848 mph that was set in 1981 (!!!) by the Temple family in a '29 roadster called "Gotcha". Yes, you read that right....the record I'm now trying to break was set 45 years ago and has not been broken. That's how tough it is to break some of the Roadster cl*** records. Do we need the full 3000 horsepower to break that record? No. In fact, my first p*** with the new engine last year was supposed to just be a "check out p***". My partner Albert and my crew all agreed that I should run the car up to 200mph or so, and if it felt good going through the 2-mile marker, go to the 3-mile and pull the 'chutes. We needed to verify some things and that would give us some important data for tuning, driving, and perhaps most importantly, fuel consumption. Well, when I got to the 2-mile marker at around 200 mph the car felt pretty good, so I put my foot all the way to the floor. The car took off like an absolute rocket and averaged 245 mph between the 2 and 3 mile, with a GPS indicated speed of 254mph when I pulled the chutes. So that put us over the record and into impound to back it up the next morning. Unfortunately we had a few gremlins that kept us from being able to start the car on the line, and we couldn't back it up. How fast will 3000 hp take us? Well, that largely depends on how much we can put to the ground without spinning the rear tires, or flat spinning the car. And that largely depends on the condition of the salt we are racing on. There have only been two roadsters that have ran over 300 mph. The legendary #911 Roadster mentioned above that made probably 5000+ hp, and the #66 Roadster of Doug Robinson who did it with an unblown/ injected nitro engine that probably made a similar amount of power to what we are making (if not a little less?). So we feel like the potential is there, but there are so many things that have to go right, it's tough to predict. My current focus is the D/BFR record, and once we get over that hurdle we will probably start attempting to go incrementally faster to see what the car (and driver) is capable of.
Here's a video of the roadster firing up and leaving the starting line on that check-out p*** that ended up being a record qualifier. I can't think of many things in this world that sound better than a blown fuel early hemi. If you listen closely, you can hear when I cross the 2-mile at 1:35 in the video and get my foot all the way in it. It gets a lot louder....and remember I'm 2 miles away from the camera at that point.
Here's a great Matt Rhynes video of Donny ***mins making a beautiful clean p*** in the 911 Blown Fuel Roadster at El Mirage. This shows what it's like to drive a blown fuel roadster when things go right. It's addicting. You can start watching at 6:00 to see the in-car footage.
@B*** You got that right. Best sound evr. Damn the 2nd video is even more gnarly!!! Thx for posting up
@B*** Thank you , I was not bashing , Just curious , & I am ***uming the salt does not get packed like dirt , so as you try to gain traction you're on top of the salt and it's rolling also between the tires. Yes I am aware of pumps play big part Especially on nitro & in nostalgic cl***es drags Hemi 390 -412 I think work well , I do not know if key & secret On management of the barrel valve and puppets byp***es , Is it Critical Because really me thinking understanding MFi Idle WOT, When you mention 2 mile mark and then full throttle , was that actually gas pedal movement/ barrel valve Or start Leaning ? Thanks for your input .
And another in-car video of the 911 Roadster with owner Dave Davidson driving it at Bonneville. Compare this to the El Mirage video above. Traction is harder to come by, and the length of the run with higher speed makes it much hairier.
When you have this much power on the salt, you typically have to ease into the throttle. I learned (the hard way) that you really should be in high gear before trying to give it full throttle in a blown fuel roadster. I had about an inch or so left of pedal travel and that of course also opens the barrell valve more to put more fuel into the engine. Since it had already built some heat getting up to 200 it really came alive when it got just a little more air and a lot more fuel. Nitromethane carries it's own oxygen so the more you can cram in there and ignite, the more power it makes.
Here's a video of Eddie Marlen driving the other 300 mph roadster that I mentioned, Doug Robinson's 66 Unblown Fuel Roadster at Bonneville in 2020. At the end of the video it shows that they estimated the car was making 2500 hp.
Enjoyed the videos seeing the black tracks from the tires spinning trying to put the power down shows how difficult it is to get a roadster to run so fast. Counting the days left till Speedweek once again. Ronnieroadster
The first time I went out to Bonneville, This car, the Perris & Eaton fuel roadster was running. I've always liked the sound of blown nitro drag cars, so when these guys ran, I was sure to be nearby. The thing did not disappoint! The sound of that big Hemi wailing away for an eternity is the stuff dreams are made of.
Well, there’s much of my life I’ll never get back after reading this thread. I’d like to thank @19Eddy30 for starting this thread and @B*** for his post and explanation, along with the videos posted. PS I don’t want that time back!
Sorry my head ( and every thing else hurts and I just can't process, read, all that is here, but I offer these ) first is what happens when Somthing hits water after falling a great distance? More relevant tho is what happens when a tornado comes to town. That is some real power. `Dude where's my car?``
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