Technical Camshaft/Lifter issues SOLVED

I need to amend post #17 item 4 to recommended spring pressures may be too high for most applications.
When I built my OT BMC A 1098 engine, I talked with Schneider Csms about spring pressure. The springs recommended were in fact light I’d have to look up the values. I’m sure it was 100lb or less closed. But the cam is fairly aggressive 230 degrees at 0.050 and 0.290 lift at the cam. It will rev to the moon if I wanted to take it there.

Dan

 

I always used a ten minute break in period. Going back to the mid sixties I have always done it that way and never had a problem. I guess I have just been lucky.

 

I would say yes, you are lucky if you get away with it now. Cam profiles, oil make-up, and country of origin manufacturing has all changed.

 

My self , I am not going to take chance Unless I know Cam / lifters are
Pre 2000 ish , There has to be a issues when Many engine builder will Not
Install / use , even stock or mild builds.
If you want to take the chance , I would add Magnets to oil pan near oil pick up .
When wiping cam / lifter there a lot to clean . Maybe this Issue has always been around just was not aware of Until inter net became a vast source of information. ?
Myself I have only wiped one non oem
Cam / lifter & that was around 1995 .

Also there been issues for
Last 15 or so with Bronze gears

 

I know @Pete1 showed drilled cam and lobes to provide oil to the lifters quite a while ago.

 

Anything you can do to add more oil to the lobe will help, even if the oil back feeds into the lifter when it makes contact at the hole, it's still adding oil. Running thinner oil also throws more.

 

Of course you've seen all the stuff about zinc being removed from oil to help the car companies reduce emissions after the OEMs went to roller cams in the late 80s/early 90s......

 

Planned obsolescence. No money in flat tappet cams anymore. They used to be in every production car. Now everything has evolved. So cue up the cheapest bidder for cores using the cheapest materials and even less money for hardening. It's not an install issue, it is all on the manufacturers. They just want you to believe you did something wrong. It's not the zinc in the oil excuse either.

Don't believe me? Think back to 1984, was there a rash of guys losing cams? No one even knew there was a break in procedure.

 

Totally agree with the above.
I've always used a good industrial paste type Molybdenum Disulfide lube and have never run a cam lobe. It's important to wash the cam lobes with a product that doesn't leave a slimy film otherwise the MD doesn't bond onto the "Parkerised" surface and can wipe off easily after minimal start-up rotations ..... same deal with the lifter faces.
Always put two lifter faces together to confirm that they have adequate crown to actuate their rotation ..... also measure the cam lobes to confirm they have adequate taper.
Use regular ***embly lube only on the cam bearings/journals and lifter bores.
And always use a good engine oil designated for flat tappet cam use with adequate ZDDP content and viscosity.
Also agree with valve spring pressures, especially at the "Run In" procedure.
I also vertically mark the top of the pushrods with a white paint pen so to check for rotation at start-up.

 

@Roothawg
Before I had $ to buy Crower, Isky
Clay Smith or etc , speed shop cheap
Blue Racer like $65 cam lifter's
No issues ,
A Decent Non oem lifter 1k plus
I feel worth it & those are entry-level of good especially S-R street use

 

I'm not an oil expert, can only share my own experience with cam lobe fails starting the mid 80s.
Roothawg is correct, something was changed in the manufacturing process or metallurgy of cams and lifters
When I ordered the last cam, the tech rep told me to do the 20-minute break it in with stock valve springs, then switch to the Z-28 springs that I want to run. "Z-28 springs are not very aggressive"

Tried running the #1 synthetic oil in my daily a few years with good results, until trusting it enough to put in my older flat lifter engines, got burnt.
In Wisconsin the nice cars get parked from November to April, my first spring start-up with 100% synthetic wiped out two 350 sbc cams
Common sense tells me the easy flow synthetic oil ran right off the cams for 5 months storage.
No oil, dry start up
I've learned to run conventional mineral oil with 20% Lucas oil stabilizer; I think the stabilizer helps keep lube on the cam for spring start up

During spring start up I disconnect the spark, turn the engine over with the starter until there is good oil pressure, reconnect and fire it up, then bring the rpm up to sling some oil

 

I agree with the above.

I am not an engine builder but have built a dozen or more engines over the years, on every engine, all with new flat tappet cam and lifters (I avoid old cam and lifters, although have used new lifters on an old cam) I have always done 2 things (as advised by an old speedway mechanic when I started my first engine rebuild in the early part of 1980)
1. always use a liberal amount of Moly grease on cam and lifter faces, Liberal means excessive to the point you can't see the cam and lifter bottom, the Moly grease after run in dilutes into the oil and ****ters all inside the block, never get clean oil again, even after 20 years, the Moly is continuing to help the cam lubed, no ZDDP, this my practical experience.

2. The second ***embly thing is to use a mixture of STP friction modifier with oil 1:1 and apply this to all bearing surfaces, rod, mains and cam but not on any thing else. my 2 cents worth.

 

You all are scaring me.
I don't claim to be a professional engine rebuilder not even remotely close but I am not afraid to do pretty much anything to an engine.
Currently I have a 283 from 1959 on my garage floor (on a cart patiently waiting to go in its new home) with a pretty aggressive cam (I don't remember the lift and duration But because it's going in my Model A I wanted it to sound pretty aggressive but not over the top). Then my other vehicle is an off topic 1973 Continental with a 460 I am shooting for 550ish horsepower range, I got the engine all installed in the car and it's probably 4 or 5 hours away from firing up It's been sitting for Probably 6 months now I was going to use a drill and drive the oil pump and just pull a valve cover until I see the oil flow, because I would imagine all of the cam lube is probably in the oil pan at this point but yes you all have me scared I don't want to have any lifter issues.

In the past I just shoved all the cam bits in there and did probably 1800 or 2,000 RPM for 20 minutes or so maybe 30 and then drained the oil and never had any problems But it's probably been 10ish years since I last did it but I definitely was never careful in the past although all my valve springs are pretty weak so hopefully I won't have any issues.

 

I will ask a Question for the one that say have "Not" had a Issue with Solid or Hyd flat tapped last 10-15 years would you take a chance on Fresh /New
$ 6,500 plus just for parts long block , Not one of those cheap part's in
350 , 383 ,406 gm crate or Ford , Mopar
Engine. For ones that think $6,500 for parts are out of your range ,
Lets drop down to just Low budget came change ,
S or Hyd F-T average $200
Cam goes south
R & R engine = time
Tare apart & clean =time
Correct way dis***emble Heads =time
Re***emble = time
More likely new gaskets $200
Crank turn = $150
New bearings = $150
Time spent ordering , travel
Good Oil VR1 non S & filter = $75
Re***emble = time
Cam/ lifters = $200 , are you going to take a chance again on F-T ?
If so now you have $400 in Two cams.

Would be $ ahead just to spent the Extra
$600 for R lifters plus the original $200
Cam / lifters A extra $50 for R cam
Roller cam & lifter $800 for average
D & D , not race R lifters
Those $1,200 plus .

Just trying to give some reasonable advice,,, My pocket's ate not that deep
But I know what is to speed $1,400 on
Aluminum rods after 8 months or less
Toss in trash & a mid crank $3,500 ,oil change should be every run & not compete My choice Just for Trill & challenge my self in tunning .

 

@Atomic Reverend Alexander
Rotate engine a few times while priming with drill , best to use a old distributor
Or correct priming tool to compleat the oiling Circuit
Do not know or remember if Ford like Gm to compleat oil Circuit with distributor installed , rotate engine
By hand while priming

 

I hadn't thought about rotating the engine a few times but that's not a bad idea It definitely isn't going to hurt it. The plus side with a 460 is the oil pump drive rod essentially looks like a pencil I think it's 5/16 anyways I welded a nut driver to the end of a drill extension probably 25 years ago When I was poor and had no money and it works perfect prime it.
I won't lie I have been putting off firing up the car because I have heard tons of horror stories about camshafts especially ones that were bought during the COVID days which my cams were on both engines.
That being said I bought quality break in oil and now that I am aware that it exist I intend on buying the cl***ic car oil that is now sold everywhere hopefully that will solve any potential issues.

 

That's the proper procedure. Some engines, if not all, engines need to be turned over slowly by hand to ***ure oil gets everywhere. Considering how little space there is in an ***embled engine & how long it has been, you might drop the pan & use white lithium spray grease on the cam, better than nothing if its dry.

 

I can't see any benefit to rotating the engine while priming it. If you used good ***embly lube and not some runny stuff that by the time you got ready to prime the engine it was in the oil pan, then there's no need to turn the engine. And turning it just means another step that I've never done, and never lost a cam by not doing it either.
Use good ***embly lube like the thick goop GM uses and the a lobes will be protected even months later when you prime it.

 

Every time it rotates it removes more of the break-in grease and additives so don't turn it, pre-fill the carburetor, prime the oil system, have a good working distributor, have it full of water, have fans and a garden hose ready to help keep it cool, have safety gear close by just in case, and be sure the battery is good, charged, and has good cable connections. It should fire off in a turn or two, get the rpm up ASAP and wait, tune on the fly, watch the gauges and keep your ears open for anything odd.

Watch for lifter rotation why ***embling the valve train so you can add more paste to the cam once it's back on TDC.

The GM EOS is good stuff if you can still find it, Engine Oil Supplement. I haven't seen the ***embly lube, but bets it good also.

 

When I built my 390 back in 83 the old man and I didn't break it in fired it up set the timing and idal dad method was run the car hard the first hundred miles. When I built the 292 YBLOCK I installed the old lifters with the new Isky cam 20 minute break in engine still runs strong 25 years later. So fast forward to 2005 l built my 303 rocket with a flat tappet never ran it so a couple of years ago I decided to replace that cam with a roller to many problems with the flats so with my luck the flat cam wouldn't of went bad and the roller will.

 

On some engines like the early hemis oil only goes to the rockers at certain points of rotation. W/O turning they will be dry, not actually related to the cam

The standard belief is that each lifter wears to the specific lobe it's on within a minute or 2 after start up & mixing them up will cause a failure. Back in the 70s it was normal to fire it up & run it around 2K for 20 minutes and not drive over 55 for the first 500 miles, this was before the speed limit dropped from 70.

 

I like the idea of using the proper ***embly lubes and slowly turning the engine by hand while priming the oil pump. While doing this you'll usually hear some bubbling and gurgling as the oil finds it way to fill oil p***ages leading to bearings, lifters, pushrods and rocker arms. As mentioned already, oil holes in the cam and crankshaft have to align with p***ages in the block to be filled with fresh oil.

You'd probably get similar results by removing the spark plugs and spinning the engine over with the starter a few times while watching the oil pressure gauge.

 

During my research on the cam/lifter issues I read some stuff on lifters being ground eccentrically I thought in an old HR article online, can’t find it today. Anyone know anything about lifters being ground eccentrically?
Dan

 

That can hammer the starter & battery, you're wiping more break in lube off the lobes than doing it with a drill motor & there's only 1 or 2 during each spin where the rockers are getting some oil, and those will be the last thing oiled doing it that way.

 

@George , Yes on oiling of Hemi ,
Me I would add /modify individual oiling to each rocker stand beside off the one port cam bearing supply .

 

Brian Salter has a video where he drills holes in the block (SBC in this case) directly above the cam lobes and installs jets in them, gives direct oiling to the cam. He says it eliminates cam failures, mostly anyway.