Hot Rods Model A Rake and Mechanical Brakes, etc.. Build thread?

So, moving along.

Before removing the axle, I'm forging ahead with mocking up some parts to make sure nothing gets in the way of some other thing. Shocks look good, front engine mount good so I'm moving onto the spring perch and brake actuators.
Staring at things something didn't seem quite right and I spent quite a bit of time moving things around trying to figure out what I was missing.

Some background. The un-named guy that did my axle supplied new king pins fitted to '32-34 spindles. [I think]
As they were '32-4 spindles I was thinking '32-4 king pins. But he did not supply brake actuators.

More background; Got a heck of a deal, [$200] on complete set of spindles hubs, drums, bearings, actuators, pins, and all the brake rods which reportedly came off a '34 pick-up that the guy switched over to hyd. brakes.


So after moving kingpins around and swapping actuators[side to side] , I was right on the cusp of posting a series of what could be considered really dumb questions.

The first of which was, what's the orientation of the king pin, does the fat part face forward or back?
I looked in the Red Book, online, etc... and nothing was really clear enough to tell. And nothing mentioned it as I'm sure it's something even the rankest dumb*** should know.
But not me.


Finally looking at one of Maine A's YouTube videos, I could pause and get a clear enough shot.

Then I started trying to fit the '32-4 actuators that came with the brake set I bought. No matter what I did, it just wasn't right. Tried swapping king pins, swapping actuators.
No matter what I did, the brake arm went the wrong way, [down instead of up] and when the hole lined up with the bolt the actuator was completely wonky.




I finally looked at my '30 Model A actuators. Wait a minute...
Ah Ha...
Cleaned them up, held them in place, the arm goes the correct way, will press on the pin correctly and with a very short extension will be level.

See, I'm not so dumb.

Anyway, for anyone else, here's a shot of '30, Model A, and what is "supposed" to be '32-'34 actuators. [I think] If that is not in fact what they are please let me know.
[Quite a few differences. For one it looks like the '32-4 arm points down, not up.[is that right?] The Model A has a stud, not a bolt, and the mounting surface for the bolt is angled , not flat, like the Model A, and on the model A the brake arm is straight, on '32-4 it's angled]


Maybe this is common knowledge, but I just made it more common for anyone else scratching their head..
So, make a pair of bracket extensions, [3/8" thick] clean them up and bolt it together.









I really haven't decided what nuts and bolts I'm going to use yet. For the stuff that bolts to the frame I've sort of been stuck on the black oxide ****on head grade 8 Allen bolts. They sort of look like rivets if you squint. My plan was to get all that bolted together then paint the frame, bolts and all.
They say weather resistant but I'm going to bolt a few things together and sit them outside my shop.
Those lock nuts are really "the nuts", no pun intended. Best I've seen. They used to have low profile ones but not 7/16 and not fine thread. I think McMaster-Carr doesn't carry the inventory they used to.

I thought about nickel plating the fasteners, just for weather protection but If I do that I may as well do stainless and that would look too "glitzy". Folks didn't have the money for that back in the day.

I ordered the hairpin split wishbone but in the meantime I think I'm going to clean-up and mount the steering box and links to again make sure nothing is in the way of anything else. Better to find out now as opposed to when things are painted, even it is just black...

robj

 

Does this look right? When the spindle is "straight", as in the car would be steering straight forward] the arm is slightly ahead of the axle. [the spindle arms were bent by the guy that did the axle drop, reportedly on a jig.






And if that's ok, should the boss for the ball be horizontal?
Thanks,
robj

 

Back at it. Actually I've at it but with a few detours.

I had a few questions that I started new threads on.

The first was regarding setting caster. I'm not sure why I was struggling with this and being so thick-headed.
My initial embarr***ingly dumb questions and my path to enlightenment can be found here;
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/dumb-model-a-question-part-2.1344467/

With the help of others, I finally figured out the axle has a set amount of caster, [usually 6-7 deg.'s] and any adjustment to the actual "driving"caster, [with the car weighted and on the ground] is done by adjusting the wishbone. Then making sure the spring doesn't bind in the front crossmember.

This led to a question regarding removing leaves from a Posies Super-Slider Spring, [outcome of that discussion is somewhat inconclusive]
What I'm going to do is remove the top 2 short leaves and see how it acts. As no fenders etc.. I think I figured I removed about 250 lbs.
I may end up removing a 3rd leaf, but that has to wait until the weight of the engine and the body are in place.
That discussion is here;
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...ring-setup-and-headers.1348597/#post-15846169

That also led to a discussion of headers and split wishbones.
I had bought a set of what I think was an unused set of Reds Headers. The reason I say "I think" is the prior guy had them "Jet Hot" coated and removed the "Reds Headers" tag I normally see on theirs.



Although these were unused the guy said they were probably 10 years old. I have to say they are very well made with nice welds. [This is in contrast to a few comments I've seen about the quality of Reds not being what it used to, but I can't speak to that other than to say these are really nice.]
If they are in fact Reds. They look just like his but like I said, no tag.

Anyway, I remembered someone mentioning in the very beginning of this build thread that sometimes wishbone need to be split when running a banger with headers.
Found it;
"If you run headers on the banger , you may need to split them, and if you use some of the aftermarket dropped axles, you will need to narrow it to if the perch pin centers (cut it 1/2 way thru at the welds at the rear of the wishbones , line it up with the axle and rewelded it)"

So I started measuring using the rear motor mount as a reference point as I had a spare flywheel housing and rear mounts in the frame for mocking up purposes.
What I found was at their lowest point the header are 9" below the top line through the motor mount, And the top of the wishbone is 9" below that same line.
So, not enough clearance for the header, AND articulation of the wishbone.


But I really wanted to use a header so I started investigating splitting the wishbone.
This seemed almost impossibly difficult, [at least with my set-up] ie. stock steering box and retaining mechanical brakes.
It just caused so many problems with having to raise or lower the drag link, lower the steering arms, and bending the pitman arm. Pretty much re-arranging everything I already had.
I even ordered a hairpin set-up to check things with that but that was just as bad if not worse.
There were just too many things trying to occupy the same space, [right here]



I was ready to go back to the "vintage" cast iron header I was going to use originally.

But I started looking at every Banger header out there.
I found the ones offered by "Gear Drive", [also sold by Millworks, but they are out of stock]
They are advertised as fitting with stock wishbones and are shaped differently, with the tubes descending further back.
It looks like they will fit.




Maybe with room to spare.
I ordered one and it came in a few days. I have to be honest. The workmanship was not as good as the Red's header [again, if it was/is a Reds]
The welds are not pretty and the back of the flange is a bit rough. Nothing that can't be m***aged, but still.




Maybe I'm being too picky...

The road ahead;
So I'm working toward getting the frame with the engine, trans and body sitting on the ground.
I still have to take the front axle off and correct the difference in caster between the 2 sides, [5.75 + - and 3.5 + -]
The recommendation was to remove it and set it up free of anything that might influence it but I don't think the measurement will differ. We'll see. It has to come out to heat and bend anyway.

In addition, I'm going to get the engine in the frame to put the header question to rest once and for all.

But, [there's always a but] with the roll-around frame I have everything sitting on, I need the weight of the rear springs and axle installed before installing the engine. I do need to move it from time to time.



So, the Posies rear Model a springs are just cut square, which didn't appeal to me so I rounded the ends, [somewhat like the front] sand blasted them and a coat of POR-15.



So probably 2-3 weeks worth of work, [more like 4 at my pace]
Feel free to comment, pro or con.

robj

 

You're doing great work!
Yes, the 32mm actuator points downwards and the brake rods run towards the center of the car.
I had to figure that out myself, which is why I used the ones from the Model A.
I built my own Headers and then discovered I didn't have enough clearance to the wishbone;
I had to shorten them by one inch.
I like the friction dampers, especially if they come from the Netherlands, since Speedway doesn't ship to Germany. Who sells them?
Regards, Harald

 

hanging weight on that frame and suspension is where I'd go next too. After that dialing in both spring shackle angles and sorting out the caster differences in your front axle would be next. My selection of headers comes later after the suspension and steering questions are mostly settled and the car is on the ground mostly ***embled.

 

Harald, at the end of page 2 and the beginning of page 3 of my build are comments by Lattahattu, [who is in Finland] and who makes the shocks. I don't know if he keeps stock on hand but you can contact him.
I liked them as they are compact, [close to the frame] and use the stock mounting holes and dogbone linkage. They are quite robust and very well made.
Plus I think they look very cool. They were used quite a bit before the invention of tube shocks and originally used wood or leather as a friction material. These use brake lining friction material. I had someone contact me asking about the friction disc size as he had a set with rubber discs. He said they tended to stick after sitting and he had to grease them which would seem to defeat the purpose. I would think you would have to tighten the bolt quite a bit to make them work. So avoid them if you see them.
As for the headers, we will see once the engine is in. I'm very curious about the fitment of both.

And thank you for the kind words, I'm trying. I'm following your build as well. I'm impressed with your ability to overcome your parts availability issues. That has to be challenging.
Thanks,
robj

 

Thanks for the heads-up, I had read it but forgotten about it.
If my damper design doesn't work satisfactorily, I'll contact him.
Best of luck and continued success. Cheers, Harald

 

Another question just popped up.
I've read and seen where the '34 brakes are pretty much a "bolt-on", which they are, [sort of] but just realized there's an issue with the emergency brake which I hadn't thought about.

I have the front figured out, [I think] but the rear is generating some questions. The issue is with the emergency brake. The A has a separate brake shoe activated by the emergency brake cross shaft. The '34 has an "equalizer ***embly" that activates the rods on all 4 wheels for the emergency brake.

I was thinking, the easy way would be to use the '34 brakes on the front and retain the A brakes on the rear, but I would rather have the larger brakes on all 4 wheels.
Has anyone figured out the emergency brake for a Model A and '34 rear drums?
I've done a little searching but most of what come up is the E brake with hydraulic brakes.

I'm just beginning the mock up stage but was wondering if an arm or lever could be added to the Model A service brake shaft to activate all 4 brakes like the '34?
robj

 

My coupe runs 32-34 brakes on the front, and model A’s on the rear - I’ve had no problems with this setup.

remember, if you run big and little tires the braking capacity of the rear increases in relation to the front braking capacity due to the increased rolling diameter of the tire

 

Stovebolt,
To be honest I never thought of that. I guess it doesn't increase over the stock wheels/tire as they were just about the same height as the 7.50's I had on hand, but it would be greater than the front.

I'm going to ponder keeping the A brakes in the rear. That would sure be the path of least resistance, [no pun intended...]
robj

 

You need to consider the weight shift/transfer - when braking, you move the cars weight off the rear and onto the front, requiring somewhere arround 60-70% of the brake efficiency from the front axle.
If going with larger brakes on the rear too, you risk having too large brakes, making rear lock up more often than comfortable.
Remember, well-maintained stock A brakes will still lock up all 4 - larger fronts will help, but larger backs might bring you in trouble.

This guy explains it short: https://youtube.com/shorts/1sHaZN8u1P0?si=9ig2pNoZrH3crqse

They didn't know all, and ignored alot due to pricing, when Ford made these cars in the '20s and '30s.

 

I also run 32 brakes up front and Model A on the rear. Use Ted's floaters up front and new cast iron drums on the rear. No issues for over twelve years now. I believe your over thinking this. Early brakes if maintained work fine, if you dont drive like an idiot.

 

Dannerr,
I had thought about the weight transfer part but was thinking, "well, they had them on all 4 wheels in '34". In addition I had good, "turnable" '34 drums whereas my A drums will need replacing with cast iron ones, so more $, [although that's quickly becoming less of a consideration].

62Pan,
I admit I am inclined towards "overthinking". I mean I guess it beats under-thinking but at the same time it presents its own set of issues.

After some pondering, I think you guys have convinced me with;
1. the number of people saying they have run '32-34 brakes on the front and A brakes on the rear without issue.
2. the simplicity of running what's there without having to invent a new system.
3. the weight transfer and the front to rear 60-40 bias.[70-30?]

Actually I think #3 is the one that put me over the top, once I got past the "bigger brakes all around" fixation. I always thought Henry's bias toward the rear brakes was a little strange. Like I previously said, I think with the tires of the day his thought was for the rears to skid, more or less keeping the car in a straight line like a drogue on a boat.
And let's not ignore the "over-thinking" part.
[Thanks for reminding me!]
So, alls left is to break out additional funds for new cast drums for the rear and Teds kit. Oh well, it's only money,
Thanks,
robj
"Spending my kids inheritance one project at a time."

 

When I replaced my rear brakes on my Tudor I bought them from Snyders along with the shoes. They will true the drums and fit the shoes for you if you want.

 

Speaking of Snyders, [and don't get me wrong, I've bought a ton of stuff from them]. But I was looking at the "Flathead Ted" brake floater kits.
At Snyders the deluxe kit is $375.
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/product.htm?pid=977547&cat=41655
Directly from "Flathead Ted" the deluxe kit is $220.
http://www.flatheadted.com/index.ph...category_id=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=54

Quite a difference.
robj

 

That’s the nice part of shopping around on the inner web

 

A really good way to get your wife's attention. She went out to lunch with her girlfriends but lunch could have lasted a bit longer. To her credit it was not a big a deal as I anticipated... 450 degrees for 2.5 hours.

 

Copied from my "Dumb Questions" thread just to maintain some level of continuity.

But a decision on header, [I don't think "Reds" will work - "but Geardrive" says there's will work with the stock wishbone]

I'm not sure why I've been avoiding this somewhat, maybe it's just nice to look at the axle installed and feel like progress is being made. I have been doing other things, bell housing work, pedal bushings, prepping the 12" front brakes [and rebuilding the engine of a "free" Kawasaki Mule my son got.]


I saw someone else that had the "Reds" header installed and he reports very limited clearance between the header and the wishbone when at rest. Like less than 1" which to me isn't enough. He hasn't driven his yet but I suspect there will be issues.
With this in mind I bought a "Geardrive" header, [also sold by Millworks] They specifically say it will fit the stock wishbone. I do have to say the overall fit and finish of the "Reds" header is much nicer.

So, splitting the wishbones is off the table which is probably a good thing.
Anyway the front axle is coming off this week and using the many suggestions I will report what I find.
Please hang around as I'm sure there will be questions.
thanks, robj

 

I've been spending quite a bit of time here:
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...-question-part-2.1344467/page-2#post-15891133
Mostly, [eventually] trying to, then finally understanding Model A Caster/Camber/ Rake and front axle. With some patient help from you guys.

The axle [3" dropped and stretched] I got from another vender, [also in OK.] was completely out of wack. The Camber was 10 deg.'s plus and the Caster was 2.5 degrees.'s Pos. on one side and 3 degrees Neg. on the other side. Not usable as is. I contemplated attempting to get it right myself but to be honest I chickened out.

After considerable pondering [and consternation] I made the decision to send my original axle to Nostalgia Sid's. Talked with him a few times and although he was willing to straighten out the first dropped axle, to drop my original wasn't that much more money.
And my original axle is in decent shape measurement-wise and much, much better condition cosmetically.
I did go a little overboard on the shipping though. I made a plywood box the will accommodate both the original axle and the axle when it's dropped.
And if anyone hasn't tried "Pirate Shipping" they were half of the normal UPS rate and you drop it off at UPS and it's shipped by UPS.

I haven't been sitting around though.
New shafts, bushing and pedal heads for the brake and clutch. That went generally okay.


Next on the list was the rear axle which I was sure probably needed rebuilding. The car had 82K miles and some neglected/deferred maintenance.
So I made a decent holder for the axle, [for rebuilding. And please, don't look at the welds too closely- it was a beer night, with my buddies were "supervising"... but mostly drinking my beer.]


But I couldn't stop thinking about how little backlash there was. With that many miles it just seemed like that should be worse.
So I got out my calipers and a dial indicator and started taking some measurements and posted the question on the "Model A Restorers Club" FB page, What measurements can I take to determine the condition of an axle without dis-***embly. the discussion is here;
https://www.facebook.com/groups/MARCFordGroup/multi_permalinks=10163858399048801&notif_id=1779605313633561&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&ref=notif

Bottom line and general consensus is "run it.", which is what I'm going to do.
One less thing.
I guess I'll donate the stand to the club.
So the next thing was cosmetically addressing the axle. I had made a driver to get the worn bushings out of the perches. One came out with just a little bit of heat, the other? Not so much. Fought me every inch.
I guess I should have hardened the driver as that got pretty munged up as did the perch.
some grinding and welding and grinding were called for.

But all's well that ends well. It's amazing how much time these little things take.



I had the axle blasted and when I got it back I put a quick coat of POR-15 on it. It was pretty pitted and the POR-15 seemed to fill the pits some.
Last night I sanded it with 180 and had metal showing, with paint in the pits. I D/A'ed it with a scotchbrite to get in the pits then tonight another coat of POR-15. It didn't fill all the pits but really reduced how much they stood out.
I let that get to "finger-drag" dry then 2 coats of POR-15, Ch***is Black.

I'm definitely not going for "show", but a few steps above "crusty"... mostly as the body and paint is in such decent shape. Trying to get everything to "blend" so to speak.

Next up are the rear brakes, swaging the new cast iron drums to the hubs, blasting and painting the backing plates, brake shoes and a "Flathead Teds" Brake Floater kit.
I know I'm not taking a "linear path" but I figure everything has to get done eventually so...

Anyway, working toward the goal of getting the heavy parts installed to get to the point where it's on wheels so I can adjust the wishbone for caster.
Stay tuned and please, don't hesitate to add your 2 cents. I need all the help I can get!

Thanks,
robj

 

Things are moving forward; everything will come together nicely in the end.
Best regards, Harald

 

The differential looks extraordinary nice
I wouldn’t sweat the pits on a nearly 100 year old part.
Those parts earned those pits and unlike anything manufactured in the last 60 years there is plenty of metal beneath those pits.
Great work

 

You're right about the pits.
I'm having a little trouble getting my brain away from "restoration" mode. Funny, as it's actually one of the reasons I decided to go "HotRod"...

 

You are doing a cracking job! I work in a resto shop & if the cars we were building restoring were early Ford's some would be called traditional hot rods.
It will be interesting to see what your restoration buddies think of your A when it's done.

Re the friction shocks, we use a type of plastic in ours, remove the wood & fit the new discs, they always get greased. The idea is that the suspension is allowed to move freely/smoothly.
They get set to I think 30lbs after the breakaway tension, measured with a spring scale. This may be too heavy for an A.

I've just had an A axle dropped by a fella locally ish, 3" drop & I elected to use 36 stubs as 32-4 are reasonably hard to find, I will use a slingshot style steering arm. My plan is to also run 35/6 brakes, I'm not sure on drums yet. So I have been reading with interest. I was also thinking the Flathead Ted's floaters would be a good option.

 

Well, I'm a dues paying member of the "Model A Restoration Club" and they are pretty much, "all original all the time". [some more so than others] So, with building a dropped Banger, I'm pretty sure I will soon be excommunicated if not burnt at the stake as a Heretic. But they are a very valuable and knowledgeable resource for the stock Model A questions that I have.
I am pretty careful to keep my questions to the group segregated to the "stock stuff" and coming here or to the "Model A's Only" FB group for "Hot Rod" questions.
Also a member of the "Model A Ford Club of America" and I found it interesting their Sept. issue of the club magazine is devoted to "Speedsters" and to me it's a pretty fine line between a Speedster and a Hot Rod. I guess it's a Speedster if you get rid of the body [except for the grill and the hood] and a Hot Rod if you just change the body.
My feeling is with all the grey tops dying off, [at 74 myself included] we better embrace each other if the hobby and the mark is to survive.
Just my 2 cents but WTF do I know?
robj
P.S. I had my own issues with a dropped and stretched axle and getting caster through my thick head as covered in another thread.

 

The club sounds like a great source of information, my experience is that the lines are blurring between hot rodders & restorers. It's a good thing

The guy dropping the axle fixes the kingpin eye's & also sets the castor according to how the car is set up.

 

I would never guessed you were 74, you have a very young perspective.

 

Ha! The power of positive thinking.
I'm fortunate that my health is good which helps. Now if I can last long enough to get my A built...

 

Still working on some mundane parts of the project. Getting the axle bearings, hubs, brakes and brake drums squared away. At least on the rear. It's all the little things, right?


The plan is to get the rear axle done and installed along with the spring, to get enough weight in the rear that I can install the engine and trans without it tipping over on my stand.
All so I can get the body and other weighty bits on and so I can do the wishbones to set the caster.

But some sort-of exciting news. The tires from Coker came in. They were reported to be back order until August. 7.50 x 16 rear and 6.00 x 16 front. Excelsior radials.
So some eye candy, [at least to me]. Another side task, get the tires mounted on my newly powder coated rims.


Onward and upward...

 

Well you just made that old fart's day!
I have always said, I dont want people saying, what a nice old man. I want them wandering, what the **** is he up to now!

 

So an update of sorts.
The plan is to get the rear brakes/hubs done and get the rear axle in place with the spring, so I have some weight in the back to be able to put the engine in without my ***embly jig tipping over.
And all of this is to move toward the goal of getting it sitting on 4 wheels to set the caster/modify the wishbone.
I ordered the Flathead Ted brake floater kit directly from Ted in New Zealand. No return email, and after 2 /3 weeks no reply to my email checking status and I was just about to call New Zealand, then I checked and it was like 330am their time.
I figured if I ever wanted to see my kit I better wait until later in the day, [my time] to call. I'm glad I did as the kit was in my mailbox that afternoon. So, about 3.5 weeks.

In addition I placed about a $500 order with "Mikes A-Fordable". Mostly brake and bearing parts, including a kit to sleeve the inner rear wheel bearing. Some of those parts were B/O and as I had other stuff to do, told them to wait on the order until everything is in. [just heard from them, the parts shipped, about 2 weeks]
So I figured out I need to true up the face of the rear hubs before swaging the new drums to the hubs and I was originally going to try and do that on my lathe but to get it right it has to be indexed off the bearing surface.
A few months ago I stumbled across a deal on an Ammco Brake lathe I couldn't ignore so my plan is to face the hubs on that like I'm doing a brake disc. Then mount the drums to the hubs, then bead blast everything, then paint "cast iron great" heat paint, then cure them in an oven, [400 degrees for 2 hours] THEN turn the drums...
However I need to brush-up on using the brake lathe as the last time I used one was in 1972... [yikes!]

[Can't have too many tools, Right? Going to be a great estate sale]
So moving forward with the lug bolts, I tried one as a test with my 20 ton HF press. Ha! I need a bit more *** than that.
A friend has an 80 ton, [I'm not sure why} but that should do it.
After much discussion on the "Model A Restorers Club" FB page, [experts but all original, all the time- but a great resource] about swaging the hubs I ended up making a jig. The tool you get from the venders is too short to work for a jig so I had to weld on an extension.
The jig itself was a little fiddly to build, [mostly figuring out how to make the drum clear the anvil- but I think we've got it now.



Just don't look at my welds. Half look good and half look like camel snot and I don't know what I did different. But I am a grinding MF'er...

So I had the wire wheels blasted and powder coated, even though I'm not a fan of powder-coating. I bead -blasted one of the wheels in my blast cabinet and with the spokes, etc.. 2.5 hours later my thought was, "I'm paying someone for this one."

All this brings me to rims and tires. I sold a Jon boat that I had all fixed up for crabbing, [I live about 20 minutes from the Upper Chesapeake Bay and crabbing is a big thing]. Anyway after doing way too much fixing up this boat, [2 years ago] and never using it, even once, I sold it to a friends son for probably too good a price.
But, while I had some big [er] ticket money in my pocket I figured I better spend it on some big ticket items, so Coker "Excelsior" 7.50 x 16 and 6.00x 16 radials.
And, new tubes and caps. [go big or go home]
And I have to say, they don't hurt in the mental motivation department.




So here's the challenge for any of you math brainiacs out there, [rules me out]

The rear is 3.78:1.
The original wheel/tire cir***stance was 91.5 inches.
The new tire cir***stance is 101 inches.
What would my effective axle ratio be?

I'll wait.
Thanks,
robj