So i've still got my heart set on running my big block on E-85...even though its sitting there primed and ready to fire on gas....i'm resisting the tempation, and the risk of overheating it during the cam break in. An E-85 fuel will burn cooler, resulting in lower operating temps for me, as well as having an octane rating of 105, i can safely run it in my engine (12:1 compression), and best of all, but it at the pump. So i've been doing all the research i can, through searches on the internet..talking to the alternative fuels prof. at my univerisity, and talking to a few well known racers and engine builders without getting too many solid answers till i came across a carb shop called AED performance. They've been messing around with E-85 for racing, doing track and dyno testing with it. So here's the deal. 1lan on running 50% more fuel in a race application. For me...with 500 horse..i need a fuel system capable of feeding a 750 horse gas motor... 2: Carb size however stays the same, again in my case, a modified 850 double pumper will give me the best throttle response. 3: No concrete evidense on having to switch to S.S. fuel lines, the rubber lines on their test vehicles seem to be holding up just fine. (if the engine will be sitting for an extended period, Just to be safe, they suggest shutting off the fuel pump, and letting the engine run itself out of fuel to drain as much of the fuel out of the carb and lines as possible) As far as fuel pumps go, they must be compatible with alcohol. This is determined by if their internals are anodized, if not, they'll eat themselves up. So far, AED says that the only real drawback to running E85 is that your engine tune needs to be right on to make peak power. Timing and carb adjustments with it aren't as forgiving as leaded gasolines. However, after proper tuning, they've seen upwards of 5% increases in horsepower... (Not to sound like a damn advertisment for them, but i was pretty supprised how enexpensive a custom E-85 tuned carb from them is. I was preparring for a base price of around $600 bucks, plus a few hundred for the tuning and flow testing, but a E-85 modified 850 dp is around $650 bucks, tuned for my engine specs....)
I also have been kicking around the idea I've got a 12 to 1 motor in the works and want to go the E-85 route, I would like to do it with FI please keep me up to date on what you find out in the future and I will do the same. My thought is if you build for E-85 your results will be better than the multi fuel cars out there now, biggest drawback is a lot of Octane Booster when you can't find the E-85 I'm thinking 33 gallon tank?.. thanks
Is that price for them to modify a carb you give them as core or flat out?? If its with a core and you still need a carb 9I think you told me you needed a different one) I might be able to get you an 850 DP. Give me a call and let me know. You need to get it fired so you can drive it down here looking like "an overgrown go-cart" and then we can finish your bodywork.....
Im sorry, You will not make more power running E85, Reguardless of that the Octane Rating says. E85 has 2/3s the BTUs of regulat fuel, Less energy = Less Power, and also, Less milage.
This is true, however, because of the octane rating, you can safely sustain MUCH more compression than with gas. E85 and 93 super at the pump will make comparable power numbers on a 9.5:1 motor. Bump the compression to 12.5:1, horsepower soars, the E85 motor runs smooth and cool, the 93 motor detonates...get it? My FSAE team has safely sustained 13:1 on 100 octane gas, but was thinking of running 14-15:1 on E85. We know it can be done, and we expect about a 20% drop in fuel economy, a sacrifice we are more than willing to make in the search for reliable horsepower. I'm a huge advocate of E85 technology, and hope that one day we can all be cruising around in E85 powered rods and kustoms
There is a shop in Mason City, Iowa that just won the A.E.R.A E85 engine buildoff off in Indy. They were put up against several colleges and other shops. I am quite sure they could help you out also. I know they have been building rod motors and race motors using E85. The place is called Grawmondbecks. Ask for Stacy. ph: 641/423-8726
Dakota Not willing to jump in full blown on this conversation again. But there are or will be pros and cons with E-85 just as anything else. Best thing is hide and watch. if you can make it work for ya or become required to make it work for ya than go for it and if not let each do their own thing.
E-85 won't be truly viable until the can get it out of everything . . . not just the corn itself, which from what I understand is a few years away still. Would you rather do . . . eat or drive a car? (I know, wrong answer here . . . but seriously, look at the numbers.) I'd love a little four banger with some decent compression and then boost on that . . .but alas, that's not very traditional and certainly not the focus for on here.
My customers spend BIG$$$ on brand new European Luxury sedans w/ electronic fuel injection, designed as flex fuel vehicles. Do they burn cleaner??? Yes. Do clients complain about performance??? Yes. My experience w/ E-85 is that even w/ ******** fuel injection, these cars run like ****. E85 to increase performance??? Let's see.....the added expense of modifications, Lower fuel effiancy runs like *** sounds like a matter of diminishing returns to me. I like my hot rods filthy, poluting & noisey I also have it on good authority that E-85 is merely a stepping stone to other alternitive fuels to ween us from petro.
Dustin: Thats including the core....seems too good to be true.... And Dakota.....Do you have some dyno numbers to say its doesnt?.....oh...thats what i thought......True...E-85 has less BTU's per unit...but when you force more fuel down it....it makes up for the difference...plus is less prone to detonation...which mean i can run more timing, and and the motor will run cooler, loosing less energy through heat loss..... Comprende????
Dont get me wrong. I like the idea behind e85, anything that makes us less reliant on foreign Fuel is good. but untill they optimize vehicles to run on this better, its not helping us much. My wifes car is a Flex fuel vehicle. WE did exactly as the manual said, ease it into use, half a tank here, half a tank there, over some time. but the car ran like **** on it. im sorry but up here in ND, if you save 40 cents a gallon running e85, but yet it takes 20% more of it to get you where you need to go, its a wash, and sometimes it costs you more. Ethanol is in such high demand, that it isnt much of a savings anymore, cause 90% of all ethanol plants are Privately Owned, between investors, and all they are out to do is make a huge profit. {Just a local Example}When a 25+ Million dollar project is turning a profit in less than a year, you know they are charging the absolute max they can. i have a total shpeel here, and im not gonna get into it cause it gets semi political. and alot of it is Opinion. in short e85 can be a good thing. its all in how you look at it.
But dosent this just negate the pupose of it? You have to use more of it to make more power. i thought the point of it was to Use LESS Fuel?
The Benz's, just like the new flex fuel trucks, don't use the pros of E-85. Not like we're talking about here. Those run the same compression for both fuels. You miss the main, theoretical, positive of the E-85. And that is the higher compression for more power. If you build a motor with higher compression than a gasoline engine would like, you can make more power. I'm not pro or con E-85. Just wanted to point out why it's not a fair comparison. Plus, I wanted to use the word "theoretical"!
Yes. When you can have a 2 liter motor that makes more hp than a 5 liter motor, then you are using a lot less fuel.
All I know is that when my little flex fuel Ranger daily beater gets E85, it's slower and gets worse gas milage. Not sure how that would differ with a higher compression performance engine though.
So.....if you drive that thing to Orlando, what are you going to fuel it with? No E85 here, at least not commonly. Will it still run on 93?
wah wah wah... to all the naysayers DONT USE E85... leave it for those of us that want to run 12:1 compression on the street... comparing and engine designed and built to run on petro and then having E85 support cobbled on is ********.. now compare similar displacement engines with one set up for petro and the other E85 and we can talk....
Yeah, you are correct..........comparing apples to oranges, but again, these Benz motors are already fairly high compression( by production car standards anyway ) While not as high as 14:1............These cars ( w/ 11:1 ) run like stink on 93 octane & w/ all of the technology involved( variable valve timing, variable ignition timing, variable length intake runners, variable fuel delivery, multi valves, intercoolers, forced induction on some, blah blah blah blah...... it stands to reason that they should run well on E85 too. When it comes to production vehicles, these are very high performance, & believe me, Mercedes can tune around anything. Hell, these vehicles " Adapt" to varying conditions on the fly. And this E85 **** still makes em run Like ****. Hell, if ya wanna run your 14:1 and you've gone through the trouble to make your entire fuel system flow more, ane more corrosion resistant............Run alcohol.
I think it depends on how the mill is set up. if you're out for balls to the walls performance fuel milage isn't your main concern. But your right about the fall on its face and ****y milage thing. My daily runs 11.5:1 on pump gas. Granted I'm running aluminum heads and its set up for pump gas. Anytime I put anything with alcohol in it it pings and my milage drops a ton. Its not an alchy mill, why does it pre-detonate, that's called lean burn. Its not an alchy mill. If you want to run on alcohol there is one rule of thumb you need to remember the ratio is 3:1. it takes 3 times as much alcohol to run one as it does gasoline. Now you can drop that number a bit by blending with gas but it still take 3 times as much fuel for the alcohol part of that blend as it would if there no alcohol at all. Can you make one perform on ethanol sure you can, but it has to be purpose built. Notin' wrong with that at all. If you don't want to build a mill for ethanol than don't its a matter of choice, at least for the time being. Damn you guys ****ed me in. **** it all.
You're missing the idea of running E-85 in a hot rod.... did you build a hot rod for fuel efficiency? I know i could give a **** less how fuel efficient it is...as long as it scares the living hell out of anyone around it....its doing what its made for... Plus...with 12:1 on iron heads, i cant run conventional fuel, and in my book, no fuel means 0 miles per gallon.....
Hmmmm... Maybe I'm not following your math... stochiametric optimum for gas is 14.7:1 air to fuel ratio Methyl Alcohol is 6.5 Ethyl Alcohol is 9 Butyl Alcohol is 11.2 Hmmm.... So I'm thinking that Ethanol, straight Ethanol is more like 60% more... So Butanol is the best bet, but no one is m*** producing it... yet...
I dunno Z I've set up more than one alchy mill over the years, all I know is you plan on useing 3 times as much fuel to get down the 1320. I don't know any old timer that will tell you different. [doh I just figured out what you said I was compairing alcohol to gasoline, not air to fuel ratio.] Now maybe someone has figured out a different way to make one run, but anyway you slice it when you mix less air with your fuel that is the same as useing more fuel. Air is still free. The mix is 14 parts air to one part fuel not 14 parts fuel to one parts air. None of that makes a whole hill of beans if you're after zot instead of milage, but I know from experience that the numbers that are being thrown around are not good numbers for makeing zot. Zot is what we're after here right? Another trick you guys might consider when you are trying to make your jalopy run on the stuff is to use straight leg boosters as opposed to what your over the counter carb came with. There is more to it than just changeing jets, and that mechanical pump you bought cheap at the zone is not alchy compatible, so you might also consider several filters between your carb and the pump to keep the diaphragm out of your carb. I personally applaud you guys that are looking ahead and trying to figure out a way to make your mill run on what is going to be available, make sure you know all the costs up front so I don't have to limp out to Stayl Sandwhich, or Pig Snarf with my old beater and pull you home. Not that I wouldn't do that mind you, I just don't want to see you sitting there listening to the banjo music and hopeing that inbred muther doesn't think you're cute.
What kind of alcohol? It makes a big difference, most likely methanol. yes it is, you got that.. but it still doesn't work out to 3 times as much fuel for ethanol...
That's really the biggest hold back even here in Iowa, home of the greatest ethanol production in the USA. It's available but you really have to plan your fuel stops if you are running it in a carbed engine. Flexfuel EFI is the answer to spotty supply. I've had people tell me that they get as good or better mileage with E85 than unleaded with their flex fuel vehicles. That is unlikely if you believe the energy value comparisons. Yes E85 is cheaper than unleaded however the gap in price is not commensurate with the gap in energy value.
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