I tried searching and didn't come up with anything clear. But are Turbos traditional? Any links to pics of old turbo setups or stories or info on them would be great. A friend of mine is into turbos and I thought a 283sbc & turbo in a model A or something else light would be fun.
Very few people had figured out how to make them work by the early 60s. Look up the turbo corvair....the turbo era began at the end of what hambers consider to be the end of the traditional era.
The 57 "T" bird had an optional Roots or maybe McCullach belt driven supercharger, as did Studebaker............Not sure what years though. But turbos.......dont think so.
Not just in a museum, there was an Olds National Show in Addison, TX this year that I went to. They had a little '62 4 door Olds, looked just like the Buick Special from that year with a running Turbo. F-in Sweet.
I remember seeing a turbo set up for a Ford 223 but I have no idea when it was produced. Found the picture:
A McCullough Supercharger would be a little more period-correct, but turbos have been around a lot longer than you think!!! stolen without permission from Wikipedia.... The turbocharger was invented by Swiss engineer Alfred Buchi, who had been working on steam turbines. His patent for the internal combustion turbocharger was applied for in 1905. Diesel ships and locomotives with turbochargers began appearing in the 1920s. One of the first applications of a turbocharger to a non-Diesel engine came when General Electric engineer, Sanford Moss attached a turbo to a V12 Liberty aircraft engine. The engine was tested at Pikes Peak in Colorado at 14,000 feet to demonstrate that it could eliminate the power losses usually experienced in internal combustion engines as a result of altitude. Turbochargers were first used in production aircraft engines in the 1930s prior to World War II. The primary purpose behind most aircraft-based applications was to increase the altitude at which the airplane can fly, by compensating for the lower atmospheric pressure present at high altitude. Aircraft such as the Lockheed P-38 Lightning, Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress and B-29 Superfortress all used exhaust driven "turbo-superchargers" to increase high altitude engine power. It is important to note that turbosupercharged aircraft engines actually utilized a gear-driven centrifugal type supercharger in series with a turbocharger. Turbo-Diesel trucks were produced in Europe and America (notably by Cummins) after 1949. The turbocharger hit the automobile world in 1952 when Fred Agabashian qualified for pole position at the Indianapolis 500 and led for 100 miles before tire shards disabled the blower. The Corvair's innovative turbocharged flat-6 engine; The turbo, located at top right, feeds pressurized air into the engine through the chrome T-tube visible spanning the engine from left to right. The first production turbocharged automobile engines came from General Motors. The A-body Oldsmobile Cutlass Jetfire and Chevrolet Corvair Monza Spyder were both fitted with turbochargers in 1962. The Oldsmobile is often recognized as the first, since it came out a few months earlier than the Corvair. Its Turbo Jetfire was a 215 in³ (3.5 L) V8, while the Corvair engine was either a 145 in³ (2.3 L)(1962-63) or a 164 in³ (2.7 L) (1964-66) flat-6. Both of these engines were abandoned within a few years, and GM's next turbo engine came more than ten years later. Offenhauser's turbocharged engines returned to Indianapolis in 1966, with victories coming in 1968. The Offy turbo peaked at over 1,000 hp in 1973, while Porsche dominated the Can-Am series with a 1100 hp 917/30. Turbocharged cars dominated the Le Mans between 1976 and 1994. BMW led the resurgence of the automobile turbo with the 1973 2002 Turbo, with Porsche following with the 911 Turbo, introduced at the 1974 Paris Motor Show. Buick was the first GM division to bring back the turbo, in the 1978 Buick Regal, followed by the Mercedes-Benz 300D and Saab 99 in 1978. The worlds first production turbodiesel automobile was also introduced in 1978 by Peugeot with the launch of the Peugeot 604 turbodiesel. Today, nearly all automotive diesels are turbocharged. Alfa Romeo introduced first Italian (mass produced) turbocharged car Alfetta GTV 2000 Turbodelta in 1979, Pontiac also introduced a turbo in 1980 and Volvo Cars followed in 1981. Renault however gave another step and installed a turbocharger to the smallest and lightest car they had, the R5, making it the first Supermini automobile with a turbocharger in year 1980. This gave the car about 160bhp in street form and up to 300+ in race setup, an exorbitant power for a 1400cc motor. When combined with its incredible lightweight chassis, it could nip at the heels of the incredibly fast Ferrari 308. In Formula One, in the so called "Turbo Era" of 1977 until 1989, engines with a capacity of 1500 cc could achieve anywhere from 1000 to 1500 hp (746 to 1119 kW) (Renault, Honda, BMW). Renault was the first manufacturer to apply turbo technology in the F1 field, in 1977. The project's high cost was compensated for by its performance, and led to other engine manufacturers following suit. The Turbo-charged engines took over the F1 field and ended the Ford Cosworth DFV era in the mid 1980s. Although late to use turbocharging, Chrysler Corporation turned to turbochargers in 1984 and quickly churned out more turbocharged engines than any other manufacturer, using turbocharged, fuel-injected 2.2 and 2.5 liter four-cylinder engines in minivans, sedans, and coupes. Their 2.2 liter turbocharged engines ranged from 142 hp to 225 hp, a substantial gain over the normally aspirated ratings of 86 to 93 horsepower; the 2.5 liter engines had about 150 horsepower and had no intercooler. Though the company stopped using turbocharges in 1993, they returned to turbocharged engines in 2002 with their 2.4 liter engines, boosting output by 70 horsepower
I think Turbo development by rodders of the fifties was largely blocked by lack of appropriate hardware--many rodders were WWII aviation veterans, and turbos were heavily used and developed in the war, but I think only in gigantic sizes not useable on any engine that could be stuffed into a roadster. Turbos were likely stacked up in war surplus warehouses, but what to do with one for a 3310 engine? There was one early kit source I've heard of, the Besasie offered for Chevy and flathead use. I've heard these were nearly non-existant and never reached any serious marketing. Emphasis was on Chevy model, kit supposedly existed by about '52 at least. Don't know anyone who's ever seen one and don't know if the turbo was made for this or adapted from ???. Growing use in Diesels and the early OEM Corvair and Olds (both now offering turbos too SMALL for most rodders!) attempts increased general knowledge and started getting hardware out into the world. Real, widely available kits were mostly an early to mid 1970's phenomenon. Ak Miller writing for R&C kicked up a lot of interest with his adaptations of turbo-fuel injection-propane stuff right before kits started to appear.
Never heard of the Mallicoat Brothers? They turbocharged a Willys around '64. It was a dominant gas-class car. Couldn't locate a pic (I'm certain someone here can) but here is a short article documenting it. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4078/is_200304/ai_n9228357 Verifiably traditional.
maybe not strictly traditional but could be fun... If tastefully done it might not please the purists but wouldn't look completely out of place on a traditionally styled hotrod. I could see a twin turbo small block in early chevy dress with a blow through setup. There is an A coupe with a turbo inliner out there somewhere that does a pretty good job of pulling this off... someone must have a pic... I also remember seeing an article on some other forum that someone fowarded me a year or so ago. I believe it was something like "turbo rat rods" or something equally cliche.. it had a few in-progress builds of bare bone a's, t's and such.. some sporting wild twin turbo setups with the turbo's sticking way out the hoodsides, over the hood and such.. kinda cool in a far out way. just did a google and couldn't find it.. i don't thing i've seen any of these cars pop up in a completed state so who knows..
here is that car i was refering to, looks to be a hamber.. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=145129&highlight=turbo+ford+200
I suppose it depends on how traditional you want to go. I know that in the July 1966 issue of Super Stock & Drag Illistrated they were experimenting with turbonique setups. The setup featured in the article is a rear axle unit that supposedly produced 850hp and produced 900ft. lbs of torque at stall. They put this in a Volkswagen and was told that it was airborne by 1/8 mile. I've seen a Turbonique intake for a SBC on ebay, and they are wild. I'm sure if they had that then they had probably had turbos on other stuff.
I say run it. Check this out: http://www.ststurbo.com/universal_system These guys sell a kit that lets you run the turbo about anywhere you want between the end of the exhaust and the exhaust manifold/header (most folks do it further towards the back). Remote mounting also keeps the intake air & oil cooler. Best of all, the tube going to your intake can be partially hidden and disguised as an air cleaner or something (the filter is a cone-type, located on a pipe a foot or so from the actual turbo). It's free power. Hell, everybody should have one. ~Jason
I say who cares if its traditional. If you want a turbo, then put one on your car. Once you drive your car with a turbo, its going to seem like you have been peddiling it all this time.
I remember one from Accel that had a big butterfly in a plenum under the carb that was closed when the boost built up. It was supposed to eliminate the low rpm lag that occured due to the long path through the turbo. Anybody ever seen one work?
I've been kicking around the idea of putting a turbo on something since it's where I came from, turbo watercooled VWs. It's what I learned on and I know the potential.
I think as far as the AA/GS (Mallicoat, Pittman, SWC) cars are concerned you're looking at early 1970s tradition. I've always felt that the switch to turbos (along with funny car match races) finshed off the gasser wars. They made top end power but made the AA/GS cars too quiet and way too tame off the line, just took all the excitement out of it. When I think turbo, I think of the last time I saw KS match race his turbo Opel - just a weak show compared to his earlier roots blown act. My opinion, but it's your car.
Yes - seen them, had one. They are a pretty crude design but worked - sorta. They were a 70's item and not very well designed. Gemini also made one that was very similar, and there were a few others. The best setup was the Martin Engineering system. I have one and it looks like something the factory should have done. Very well engineered and works much better than any of the others of the same vintage I have seen. I think they are not quite traditional but cool anyways. In 64' Dodge took the old Hemi Honker and turbo charged it for X/FS I think. It made something like 1200hp back in 64' and apparently was a beast to drive.
you know the ivan bros from edison NJ by any chance?? they're good friends of mine and way into that stuff...
This little roadster belongs to Kustm52 and I...built to stir the pot a little. History of turbocharging goes back to the early 1920's, so traditional in a since of time...but not maybe to being on every hot rod at the lakes, or the drags for that matter. The late 50's to early 60's is when turbocharging started to take off in the automotive world, and at that time aircraft were starting to get the controls needed to sucessfully run a turbo on an internal combustion engine and get it (the engine) to live. The turbo on our little roadster is a very early Rajay unit...they started coming around in quantity in the late 50's....it just so happens to be an aircraft unit. Most hot rodders had very bad luck with turbos...mainly because of the lack of supporting hardware to run them on high horsepower applications. I remember seeing pictures of cars in the50's with turbos, and very very few had a wastegate at the time. So, either the turbo was going to be unresposive, or you were going to have engine parts spread all on the ground the first time you floored it. It was very clear to me that very few people fully understood how much power could be obtained out of a turbo engine...but those who had a grasp on the fundamentals were able to go very, very fast for the time. I have been around turbocharged cars nearly my whole life, and have dedicated the past 13 years building and experimenting with all sorts of applications..lets just say that some very traditional (year wise) applications will be popping up on the HAMB over the next year...an early 283 with the Olds turbo setup with a little "upgraded" parts will be storming the street in a modest car soon...even the venerable 215 Chevy 6 is going to get some "unnatural aspiration" --reed
Damn reed, you come in here with some good info and kill the thread! Don't give away all our secrets.. especially not the twin-turbo nailh...! If anyone is interested in the roadster build-up, here's a link... Turbo Roadster Brian
And Brian, if you need parts: http://www.jobbersinc.com/rotomaster.htm http://www.turboengineering.com/ Rotomaster = Rajay (same company - found 'em on some FAA site, looked 'em up at SEMA, etc and there you are). I even saw a wastegate on eBay for it! ~Jason
The Jalopy Journal
