I went and looked at '51 Chrysler Windsor Deluxe today that has the "Spitfire" inline 6 for a motor. Somebody please educate me on these motors? I know pretty much nothing about Chrysler stuff, just looking for some info/background on this motor. Thanks.
Not meaning to hijack this thread, but could someone also tell me if the Chrysler industrial six out of a Massey Ferguson combine is interchangeabe with a passenger car/truck engine?? It's a 265 c.i.d. out of a Massey 82.
Edit: ^ ^ ^ Yep, it should be interchangeable. Check out Vintage Power Wagons, I think they have more info on those. AFAIK the "Spitfire" is identical to all the previous 251ci engines except for the letters on the head. I'll just copy and paste the 1951 info from my spec sheet: Engine Type: L-Head, Inline 6 Cylinder Engine Bore & Stroke: 3-7/16" X 4-1/2" Engine Displacement: 250.6 Cu. In. Compression Ratio: 7.00:1 Taxable Horsepower: 28.36 Horsepower: 116 @ 3,600 RPM Torque: 208 Ft. Lbs. @ 1,600 RPM Normal Oil Pressure: 60 PSI The biggest and most powerful version of that engine they used was in the '54 Windsor: Engine Bore & Stroke: 3-7/16" X 4-3/4" Engine Displacement: 264.5 Cu. In. Compression Ratio: 7.00:1 Taxable Horsepower: 28.36 Horsepower: 119 @ 3,600 RPM Torque: 218 Ft. Lbs. @ 1,600 RPM So as you can see, they're not really powerful, but they make a good amount of torque at REALLY low RPMs, so they work allright and cruise great. I saw a lot driving at the Chrysler Club national show in Minneapolis last year, and you can't even hear them running under 30mph. From everything I've read they were insanely reliable amd well-designed, but like all flatheads they're sort of inefficient, which was why they were replaced in Dodges and Plymouths with the slant six. They were still used in tractors and stuff up until the mid-70's though.
Ive got a 53 plym for my daily driver and its flat six is basically the same as the chryslers, theyre even interchangable. Ive found it has reasonable power in the low to mid range, perfect for city driving, annoying on freeways. Acceleration isnt exactly great above 50 but what can you expect from a 51 year old un rebuilt flathead six?
Dodge and Plymouth flatheads were basically the same design, but the block and displacement were smaller. They will bolt into other flathead cars though.
Thanks for the info, that was what I was looking for. Are they easy to find parts for? The motor in the car does have a slight knock. Guy that has the car thinks it might be one of the pistons moving around in the cylinder, but it has been like that for the last 15 years or so he says.
Check out the p15-d24.com web site. full of info and great forum.also get all the 251-265s you can out of the combines.stash them in the barn..... ..Waterboy..... ..
[ QUOTE ] The motor in the car does have a slight knock. Guy that has the car thinks it might be one of the pistons moving around in the cylinder, but it has been like that for the last 15 years or so he says. [/ QUOTE ] Actually, I hope all the pistons are moving around in the cylinders. Just a word of caution about these engines if it has Fluid Drive. The engine oil pressure feeds the fluid drive unit somehow & usually results in lower oil pressure, so don't expect wonders from this mill. Especially if it's never been gone through. Mopars of this era are not really desirable & are usually hard to sell, so just think before you buy & don't get caught up in the moment & buy it just because it's there & a neat old car. Make sure it's what you really want & plan on loosing your shirt or keeping it for a long time. Not that they're bad but thats the reality of these cars. Billy
Great thread on a rare motor, guys. Yes, the flatheads became outmoded by more powerful V8s after '54. But if you have a '30s or '40s car and don't want to change it radically, a big flatty is still a good way to go for some more horses WHILE still keeping a more stock look and feel. Everybody has to suit themselves, and that's what makes this a great, LIFE-LONG hobby! Man, it just gets into your blood. I have a 265 that was swapped into my '38 Mopar in the 1960s, and I too need some expert advice. Specifically, are there any factory or after market manifolds, OR do we have to have a good shop create them? Secondly, after balancing motor internal parts and align-boring cylinders, how much to mill the head? How much can block be bored, and what pistons will work? Without taking the head off yet, I can't say if the pistons were steel or aluminum. Without spending a real fortune, how much can the horsepower be boosted? Thanks, guys!
I believe the 53 Windsor spitfire 6 had the same specs as the 54. My father owned a 53 Windsor with spitfire 6, ran great but the head warped on it(not any fault of his). He got it surfaced and it ran great after that. Smooooth engine, but not much getupandgo, especially with fluid torque drive. Next year was Powerflite and it was a slight bit better. Those 53 Windsors sold for $2700, about the same as Chevy and Fords. That was the reasoning in him buying it.
Engines parts to rebuild these motors are available. Vintage Power Wagon, Andy Bernbaum in MA, Egge Machine are just a few places I have gotten parts from for my flathead rebuild. You can hop up the motors. There are dual and triple carb set ups for the engines. Earl Edgerton does a number of wonderful things for the flatheads as well. George Ashes in PA has a world of knowledge on mopar flatheads . You can shave a stock head as much as .090, I would cut it at least .050 for more compression and pep.
I remember years ago, my father swapped the spitfire into a dodge truck. The spitfire engine is 2 inches longer and most of the distance is made up of wider main and rod bearings. The Dodges and Plymouths were weak in that area. I remember the old spitfire in the truck would occasionally hang the throttle wide open. Dad wouldn't even shut down the engine..he would just get out, raise the hood and jerk the throttle back! I guess you could say "Ram tough."
Im looking for ways to hotrod my spitfire 6 does anybody know if I can bolt a dodge or plymouth intake to my spitfire engine
www.oldmoparts.com will get you lots of parts. So will www.kanter.com Tom Langdon will have speed gear, so will Egge. Mitchell Motor Parts will help with body and trim, and our own Flattop Bob may be able to help.
Actually these had a torque converter with a clutch mounted on them and they were separate from the engine oil system. They did use a special oil and the oil does need to be changed periodically. Not very efficient as they use solenoids and relays to do the shifting.
Dodge passenger cars and Plymouths are shorter than a Chrysler/DeSoro block. manifolds will not interchange.
They used to use a lot of Chrysler Motors flathead 6 cylinders in forklifts I used to work on & rebuild in the Air Force in the late 60s
They ran alot of the spitfire 6 engines in the 1960s on circle tracks in New England. They were pretty fast. One was track champion in 1964 at Waterford Speedway in Conn. They ran a mixture of sixes and overhead v-8s together.
Chrysler Desoto, and canadian built Mopar flat 6's are 25 inches long, Dodge and Plymouth are 23.5. for obvious reasons internal parts do not interchange between the different lenght blocks, manifolds neither. Accessories do swap. Except the longer blocks have a longer distributor drive, (easily changed) Spitfire is marketing. Search for George Asche in thei forum for a phoe number. He does split intake and exhaust manifolds. Old Daddy of thei forum also splits them. Big torque motors, don't like a lot of revs but not many with near 5 inch stroke do. Chryslers likely will be equiped withthe M6 semi automatic transmission. Lots of recent discussion regarding those. Egge and Terrel macine are good sources for engine rebuild parts as well and Vintage power wagons. And yes the combine engines are a bolt ins for which ever block the matchup with in lenght.
George Asche is the guy to call, 814.354.2621. George has probably forgotten more about the flat 6/8 than all of us together know right now... .
That is absolutely not true. The fluid couplings, transmissions and engines were completely independent.
Not a torque converter, a fluid coupling. Not the same thing. Fluid couplings do not multiply torque. Fluid couplings were used on the old Hydramatics - that's why they were four speeds - no torque multiplication. Fluid couplings are more efficient at higher rpms as they lock up due to the mass of the fluid rotating around the periphery of the unit. It is not necessary to change the fluid in a MoPar fluid coupling unless it is slipping; then, you just top it off. Do not use ATF as that causes the seals to leak.
Related 25" engine: 237" DeSoto, same 3-7/16" bore × 4-1/4" stroke. 23" Ply/Do engines: 218 3-1/4" × 4-3/8" 230 3-1/4" × 4-5/8"
The only mopar set up that shared engine oil with the transmission was the 53/4 plymouth HyDrive unit basically a one year deal as the powerflite came out in 55. The fluid drive units take a special oil (todays most readily substitute is the universal tractor hydraulic fluid 10 wt). No torque multiplication till 53 or so. The drain and refill access is under the removable center sectioin fo the front floor. The access lines up so that the unit can not be over filled. About the only problem that occurs to these fluid units is that the seals may leak, other than that they are bullet proof.
One of the most critical parts of the Chrysler Corp flat sixes is the water distribution tube which slides into the engine and directs water to the valve seats among other things. These tubes are now being reproduced I believe but back when were a bear to find since EVERY engine needed a new one every 8-10 years or so. They were cad-plated or terne-plated steel and when they go away your cooling system is in trouble.
Yes. A couple of tips: if the fluid coupling is not slipping, just leave it alone. The fluid that is in there will last forever. Usually when they slip it is because a seal lis leaking. The #1 cause of leaky seals is that someone along the line topped it off with ATF. ATF will cause the seals to leak. If it does not slip, resist the temptaion to open it up. Just leave well enough alone.
Here is a link to a thread on P15-D24 discussing a great looking 265 build. http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=14863
thanks for the info 50 plym I have 1 more for you my spitfire has run 30 wt non detergent oil for all its life as far as I know if I change to 20/50 detergent will it plug the oil passages and cause damage to the engine
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