Early ford transmission Questions----> Toploaders/open-drive/...

I was just sorting out the drive train for my 34- I've been collecting parts- found a stock 34 frame- got another 4" drop axle, 39 rear... just putting together the car on paper-

I have a cragar adapter behind my hemi to a early ford toploader-

what year transmissions were the best with this early round bolt pattern? were they all the same?

I noticed that the merc trans shares the same bolt pattern- and I could run one of those transmissions with and Overdrive unit- I thought this might be cool with a lower gear rear-

they were a stronger trans werent they?

It looks like a newer 50 ford style transmission only with that early style front? I can snap a pic of it if need be-

whats the skinny on these merc ******s?

what would be the ideal year trans for this early type bolt circle to run behind this motor-

Right now I'm leaning twards open drive.

any insite?

Tuck

 

BTTT for the St. Croix Sickboy

 

I cant answer you on the merc trans other than alot of the gears were the same. As far as the ford top loader goes, the trans to have it the 39. Ad Lincoln gears and you have the cats ***.....Overdrive is for streetrods.........hahah!

Don

 

Lincoln gears are overrated. Yeah, you can wind it out longer, big deal. You're better off with a standard set in the trans and 3.48 or so in the rear so you can go down the highway at a reasonable rpm. And any '39 Ford trans behind a hemi 'aint gonna last long. If you wanna baby it, you can probably get by. But if you expect to put your foot into the thing at all, I highly recommend something stronger. A LaSalle trans is the way to go. Or maybe a later Ford toploader 4-speed.

 

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Right now I'm leaning twards open drive.

any insite?

Tuck[/quote]

If you do lean towards a open drive shaft, forget about the 39 and get a newer 4spd..........

 

i'll second that....ive managed to strip the teeth on '39's behind a flathead. you better drive it like grandma.....

 

Not sure what you're aiming to build, but I guess here would be my choices, personally. Now for the unsolicited advice/ramblings....

First, I'd most likely keep it closed drive and run any of the old top loaders, I don't exactly race, so it probably doesn't make a difference. Some of the earlier (pre 36?) ones the trans tapers more and you can't get an 11" clutch in there if that's an issue. I usually buy "78" top load cases even w/ the gears. Then hunt the shifting towers that measure 3" on the front fork, not the 2 7/8" ones. Then, you can use any of the later side shift guts with the later synchros...

If I were to open drive it, I'd go ahead and get the adapter from HotHeads that goes to GM and run a 3 groove sag 3 spd. They have a really low low gear so you can run some tall gears and not burn through clutches.

Last choice (since I don't have one & wouldn't wanna convert a '34 to open) would be the '50 merc trans w/ OD. "Old timers" say they're stronger, about like the '49- fords. Well, that ain't sayin ****, them things are junk! lol

Is that an Edmunds intake btw?

 

Do yourself a favor and go with a later modern setup , even the 49-51 Mercs. weren't strong enough for even a good running flatty in a heavy car. ---

 

seymours got the right idea. 39-48 gears are what you want in a 39 box. as far as being fragile I don't know. I do know the syncros in my 39 box (with 48 gears) are pretty shot after 15 years behind a mild flatty, but then again my uncle has had the same 39 box behind his hot 371 olds since 1982 and he beats the snot out of it.

if you go early ford, make sure you go through it and that everything is PERFECT inside.

 

This is a case of "traditional" ******s aren't gonna cut it. I want to stronger agree with those that say this transmission won't hold up behind a Hemi. Do you like spending money and rebuilding transmissions?
Everybody tried making it work and nobody could do it back then. You had to go to a stronger box. Don't use the old ******..
Lasalle is better, but later 4 speed probably will give you more driving pleasure in the long run because of the gearing.

 

If you want to run a closed drive, the LaSalle trans. can be converted pretty easily. Hot Rod John in Northfield OH does them all the time.

 

I'm putting a Hemi in my 51 merc and am using a 9 inch. Suggest you do the same to avoid future headaches. Nostalgia is nice, but sometimes extremely aggrevating.

 

hahaha...

I love you guys...
but I love Nostalgia even more...

I totally understand that modern is better... but I like things that break and go bump in the night... its just me.

I think I'm just sick... telling me to put a modern trans behind that hemi is like asking me to eat worms...

I think I would rather eat worms...

I really love learning about this stuff though-

I guess if I could get over it I would put a T-56 or something behind it for the road- but I just can't do it.

I have what I think is a 39 top loader... is there a way I can verify this? numbers on the case etc?? The shifter I put on it is a 37...

So 39 up they were made with stronger gears?

The setup with this hemi came out of a roundy round car the way it sits... with the Eddie Edmunds dual Quad and period Carters and that cragar trans adapter and [39]? top loader-

I guess... if its a 39 then I could live with a closed drive rear-( would like to verify its a 39 though)


I'll probably have to shorten the drive shaft and tube I'm guessing- a whole -nother deal entirely...

I think it would be kinda neat to run an overdrive just cuzz I've had really good luck with them in my shoeboxes... I usually break the rear end before the trans- BUT... a closed drive IS cool... and the banjo would be neat if I set it up with a quick change later on.


Thanks for all the advice guys-
Tuck

 

Why do people think 4spds are more "driveable???" 4th is still 1:1 in almost all of em. 4spds are for people that wanna go 1320' & give a **** about that last tenth.

Tuck, post a pic of the shifting tower. Does the trans have gears in it?

 

I may be slightly off, but the 39 trans was the hot ticket because later in the year, they went to a better synchro setup while still using a top shift case. In 40 it went to side shift. But you're in luck because the 40-48 side shift guts or a 40-48 truck open drive trans into a 37-39 case marked "78" on the lower back, and you've basically built you a late 1939 transmission. Best synchros..... top loader.... that's it.

If you have a 1937 shifter top on it, then you don't have the 39 trans. that smaller fork won't fit over the larger 3 inch ring. The wider shifter fork will be 3 inches apart.

 

This is exactly what I was going to contribute. Elrod is 100% correct here.

 

I guess my first post didn't say that???

 

You mentioned the 3 inch fork and that later guts fit.

I was telling more of a why 39s became "the hot ticket" and tried to define years of use and differences by year.

don't get upset. no body is stepping on your toes or discounting your knowledge.

 

Maybe look into the Lincoln Overdrive, 46-8 it was a closed drive set-up, but tailshaft would have to be shortened because the lincoln had a longer wheelsbase.

 

The early 3-speeds had straight cut gears vs. helical cut gears in the 40-48s. I believe the synchros are different too. As was mentioned, the 40-48 internals go right into the '39 case. But they aren't any "stronger" and will not hold up to a decent amount of power. If you can crush one with a mild flathead, what do you think a hemi will do to it? If you want a closed driveshaft, find a Lasalle transmission and have it converted. That's about as traditional as you can get, and will handle the hemi with no problem. As for four speeds being more "driveable," there is some validity to that statement. Sure final drive is 1:1 on both, but getting there is much more efficient with the extra gear.

 

I guess I'll throw my two cents in this discussion. The info given in some of the responces is basically correct. You want to know more about early Ford toploader 3 speed trannies? ....buy the book. It's all covered in there.

You want to stay traditional, keep the Ford toploader 3 speed but expect problems if you plan to lean hard on it with a hemi motor. Your problems can extend into the rear end/axles too. The keyways in the Ford rear hubs can shear from sudden applications of horsepower. In the good 'ol days, the guys just threw another junkyard trans in there (bought for $5 or $10 tops) after Friday night and ran it hard again on Saturday. We don't have this low cost option anymore these days as the "39 trans" components are getting harder to find, and more expensive as well. But, again, if you want that 50's look and feeling, you gotta have the old Ford 3 speed.

You want to hit the highway for all the big out-of-town car shows/cruises? Plan to upgrade the trans and rear end or put your baby on a nice trailer and roll it off for local driving only when you get there. You and your motor will be much happier if you can keep the rpms's down for extended driving.

You want to show off that raw hemi horsepower and light up the tires every chance you get? Better find a Ford toploader 4 speed trans from the 60/70's to back up the extra horses. While you're at it, replace the rear end with an open drive 9" unit. It's still no guarantee that you won't be left stranded after side-stepping the clutch only to hear strange noises. It just reduces the chances....

I've heard so many stories from the men who drove these cars back in the day. One will tell how he had to replace the trans behind his flathead almost every weekend. The other will brag about how he abused his old Ford toploader to no end and never had to touch it.

I can tell you this.....if you have a flattie V8 and an old toploader 3 speed behind it, with the banjo rear end, you will draw a lot more attention from the bystanders than when you have built it up more or less for racing. Again, just my two cents.............. Mac VP

www.flatheadv8.com

PS: to answer the question about the 49-50 Merc OD 3 speed. That's not a bad idea as far as gaining the overdrive gearing. Keep in mind that the gears inside are the same as the regular Ford 3 speed trans made from 1940-48. It's just put into a newer housing, plus the OD. It has no more strength than the earlier trannies.

 

The simple solution to the banjo rear end problem is to use slip in axles (from Hot Rod Works or do it yourself).

 

So you wont mind sending me that quickchange huh SANTA???

haha...


OK-
to clairify-
(in the pic) I just put that 37 shifter on top but it didnt seem to fit the trans... I pulled it off my 37 trans- so maybe thats why it wont fit this ******??? I couldnt get it to fit right at all...

I'll pull the inspection cover off and snap some more pics of the trans so we can figure out what it is exactly...

The hemi is a 200hp 331- give or take- I'm not worried about trying to impress anyone- although if I do break a few transmissions along the way thats fine... I'm down.

Thanks for the schooling on these transmissions- I've been wondering what the deal was- I've never run one before... and i dont mind hearing all the pro's and CON's to this setup...



Tuck

 

Update... GREAT NEWS!!

I have confirmed that its a LATE 39 top loader behind that hemi...

Rumor??? it may have Zephyr gears installed...
I will confirm.

Tuck

 

I've found that the best and quickest way to tell the "good" from the "bad and the ugly" on early Ford shift towers out in the field is that the early, undesireable ones have one detent spring screw on the driver side only, while the '39-up style have two screws, one on each side directly across from each other. There should also be a 81A-7222 cast in the top, but that can be hard to see when it's buried under three inches of crud.

 

Interesting. Mine was a 2 7/8 inch fork (like a 1938, early 1939 shift top) and still had the two screws. It also says 81A-7222 on it. I'm going to change out the one fork to be the larger 3 inch fork.

View attachment 241911

 

The basic interchange generations are within this post:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91515&&showall=1

 

O/T: I heard about using Jeep toploaders behind flatheads. True?