I rarely mess with ford stuff so I am stupid when it comes to ford engine lingo... so my question is... does a 351C fall under the category of SBF? or is SBF only for the 289/302 style motors? Reason is... I'm looking for a motor mount kit for a 351C into a F-1.
The 351s are small blocks, but the Cleveland engines some unique things about them. I don't know if this includes motor mounts or not. I'm guessing not, but someone here will know. Please hold the line, your party will be with you shortly, thank you for using the HAMB system.
Not the dumbest question ebver dont be so hard on your self. those damn windsors , clevlands, and modified are are hard for anyone to understand. but i think the clevland is the big block. cory
Cleveland's are small blocks, they're just a different series. Windsors, Clevelands, and M blocks are all cl***ified as small block, AFAIK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_335_engine
The Ford 90-degree engine family included the 221, 260, 289, 302, and 351 Windsor. The 351 Cleveland was part of the 335-series engines, along with the 400 and 351M, which was the 351 Windsor crankshaft in a 400 block. The Cleveland series used an entirely different engine block and cylinder heads than those used on the 90-degree V-8s, although slightly modified Cleveland heads were used on the Boss 302. The 400 had the same bore as the 351C, but a half inch longer stroke (4.00 X 4.00) with a block deck height that was an inch taller.
Dumb question??? I went drag racing the other night for the 1st time and had to ask before my run when to stop Heres an answer to a question I asked on Ozrodders re 320 vs 351 - thanks Dave. "Windsor or Cleveland? 302 and 351 Clevo use the same block, different crank. 351 Windsor uses a different block (higher deck) to 302 Windsor, heads interchange but inlet manifolds are different as the 351 is wider. A few other differences also but they all bolt onto the same mount position."
289-351C use the same mounts. The 351M and 400 are different. So your SFB kit should work just fine. Jan
Not a dumb question at all. Lots of confusion about the 351 Clevland because the displacement is the same as a 351 Windsor. 351 Clevland is part of the 335 Ford engine series...not really a small block or a big block. The mounts will physically bolt onto the block. so 351C engine mounts are not the same as SBF if they are application specific. Since you are putting it in a different ch***is, you may be better off looking for SBF mounts as they may be taller. When ordering parts for Ford engines, they usually separate the Clevland and windsor cl*** of engines. Though physically close in size, The phrase "small block" doesn't really apply to Clevand engines. Kind of like trying to cl***ify a Oldsmobile W block as a big block or small block or a 409 as a big block...it just doesn't apply.
Big block/small block is a Chevy thing.... Doesn't really apply to Fords. 351C motor mounts are the same as the 289-351W mounts, as is the bellhousing pattern.
This is wrong, 302's and 351 C's (or any 351 for that matter) do NOT use the same block, they are completly different.
Holy **** - I didn't realize this was so difficult!! Don't trust everything on Wikipedia either - I corrected an error in that writeup. See - anyone can edit anything. 221, 260, 289, 302 are all the same basic block. Everything on these engines interchanges with each other. (some minor differences with late-model 302 & balancing - 28oz vs 50oz) 351W is a unique block. Everything interchanges with above except crank (bigger journals), pushrods, & intake. It is considered same family as above. 351C is a unique block. Nothing directly interchanges with any of the above engines except flywheels. Heads can be bolted on, but there are water p***ages that need to be changed. All of the above (221-351C/W) use the same engine mounts & same bellhousing, so save for front engine dress & exhaust, will bolt in where any of the others were. To answer the original question, for the purposes of engine mounts, the 351C is a SBF. Go to tech archive - Fat Hack wrote up a good article on SBF a long time ago - some good info in there. 351M/400 share a unique block, but nothing interchanges with above (except heads w/351C, but why would you?). 351M is NOT a 400 with a 351W crank - physically larger crank snout - you CAN turn down a 400 crank to fit into a 351W block, however. They are not quite SBF & not quite BBF either - they are 335-series which shares bellhousings & engine mounts with 429/460 385-series (Lima) engines. The confusion lies with 351W, 351C, 351M - the only thing they share is displacement...welcome to the wacky world of Ford interchange! As for SBF vs BBF - it's generally accepted a**** Ford-O-philes that 221-351W & 351C are SBF, while all FE (352-428) & Lima (429-460) are BBF. The 351M/400 are orphans...
302 & 351 Cleveland use the same block. 302C has 76.20 mm stroke and 351C has 88.90 mm stroke they both have a 101.60 mm bore.
Are you sure we're talking apples & apples here, mate? Perhaps the Aussie 302C & 351C use the same block, but the US never made a 302C (other than Boss 302 with a unique block not the same as 351C) & the 302 Windsor block is decidedly different from the 351C...
The 302 & 351 Clevelands use the same block. I know the US never had a 302C. I'm so use to talking about Clevo's I miss read Chris's post , Ws & Cs don't use the same block as you say.
1970 - 1972 and some 1973, 351 clevelands use the same motor mounts as the SBf. after that they have there own style of mounts. Some of the early motors have the same bellhousing as the SBF all of the others have the same bellhousing as the 429 - 460 ford.
I had a 351C in my first pickup. The 351C is a SBF. It will bolt up to a small block C4, C6 and it will bolt up to an AOD ******. Ford never made a AOD that will bolt to a small block. There are adapter kits NOW that will let you bolt a small block AOD to a big block Ford. The 351M/400 with exception to one rare year all have the BIG BLOCK transmission bellhousing. In looking at engine mounts for SBF thru the years seems like the pre 73 Cleveland had the same mounts as the 289-351W. Thereafter it had its own mount with Modified/400 engine. The 351M/400M was in the big cars (T-birds. Cougars, Marks, and LTDs) thru 78 and in the trucks thru about 1981.
So, 302 and 351C did use the same block unless you are in the US. In which case, the 302 and 351C have different blocks but the 351W does use the same block as the 302 except it really is different. 351M and 400M used a different block but the 351 didn't use a 351 crank. All the 289-302-351W blocks used the same bellhousing pattern except those that were different. Ford didn't have small blocks and big blocks, only Chevy did. 289-302-351 are small blocks but 390-428 and 429-460 are big block, unless you are in Australia on a Tuesday in which case your 302W is really a 302C with a 5 bolt bellhousing and a 351 crank and tall engine mounts? Have I got this straight now?
One more thing the water jackets on the 351C are different that is why the heads won't work on a 351W without modifying the Windsor block that is.
Ok -there is a ton of wrong information in this thread, and a ton of correct info. Here the the good 351 info... We are only going to talk about US made motors since the 302C is an aussie only variant of the 351C. The cleveland was made from 69-74 and is considered a small block. It uses a unique block that is not shared with anything else. It has smaller journals and a shorter deck height than a 351 windsor. It shares the common 6 bolt small block ford bellhousing pattern with the windsors and the same engine mounts. The windsor was made from 69-00 I believe. I think they kept it in a few odd applications for a couple of years. It is a taller deck design of the 302. It shares mounts and the bellhousing pattern with the 351W and 351C. The 351M is a destroked 400 that uses all big block sized components internally with a *******ized version of the 351C 2brl heads. It uses big block ford transmission patterns and engine mounts. It came into being in 1975 to REPLACE the cleveland because after it was killed they could not make the windsors fast enough and had a shortage of 351ci engines. It uses a similar head as a 2brl cleveland with a much worse exhaust port. It thankfully was gone by 1980. The 400 lasted longer and went from 71-82. There is a very rare 1971 351/400M block known as the FMX block which uses the standard small block ford bellhousing pattern. It was used only in FMX transmission applications with a 400 ford.
Thank you RacerRick - more succinctly put than I - and all correct (I ***ume you're counting '69 production of '70 model year cars when you say Cleveland was made in '69). Yes, of course you're correct. I've never even seen a 221, 260s aren't common either, & the 289 5-bolt is a partial year production run only, so I "glossed over" it - my mistake. I believe you meant to say "big block" here. 351C was produced from '70-74 & never produced again. If you ever saw a 351 with Cleveland-style heads after that, it was a 351M and is a different engine. See RacerRick's post above. See response to HOT40ROD above...apples & oranges. One last time - 351C is NOT, repeat NOT the same as 351M. This is why bellhousing & engine mounts are different!
Flat Ernie you are right I meant to say "Big Block" RacerRick the 351 Windsor's last year was 96. It stayed in the truck until 1996 then Ford switched over to the Mod Motors in 1997. Thanks for the year of the "rare" 351M/400 info. Donald
I know the 351W were in trucks till 96' but they kept it around for some weird applications for a few years after it. I guess they knew they were not high on the priority list to retool accessories or mounts for these low volume applications so they kept them around for a few years after. Motorhomes were one place they lasted for a few more years. I think this is pretty common practice if the volume is low. The 250ci straight six chevy was in airport tuggers for a few years after they stopped making them. The ford 300 lasted in specialized applications like agriculturale pumps well past when they stopped using them in trucks in 96. Mopar kept making the 230ci flathead until 1968 for the powerwagon even though they were officially dropped in 1959.
Following that line of thought - Model-A/B engines were used in various industrial/agricultural applications into the '50s I believe... Oh yeah, found this gem in my archives - it's the elusive FMX-400 block.
The bolt pattern for the bell housing on the 351m/400s is the same as the 429/460s the FE (332-427) bells won't fit. Dawg
I knew a lady that worked in Ford's powertrain engineering department in the early sixties. After meeting her, I understand why there is so much confusion on Ford parts and interchangablity. She was incredibly smart, a Mensa member in fact, but seemed to have little common sense. Every project she started, she started with a clean sheet of paper. Ford's tooling costs must have been astronomical compared to Chevy's.
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