4 Banger Guys!!....Block condition questions, found 2 B's I think??

A 4 pot Fordson truck motor, is that the same as a B? & will it have a counterbalanced crank?

 

Ok, ...yYou've done well indeed on your find.

I don't know what kind of racing you are looking to do with your new banger but if you are seriously wanting to go fast, --sell the counterweighted crank to someone who wants to build a "tour engine". In non-race applications, I think a B has one or two merits or benefits over an A engine however for what some people will give for a good B engine allows a huge headstart on your budget to build a hot A engine. Dollar for dollar, an A engine will last just as long and make the same exact horsepower as a B.

The "stronger bottom end" debate is something that most people would have a tough time proving. The theory seems plausible but when I ask someone what is weak part breaks on the A that doesn't on the B, I usually get a blank stare.

Define your banger goals, make a game plan and stick with it and you can have blast with a Banger.

 

That's a damn solid post!

As far as racing,....I used that term looslely as what I'm envisioning is a traditional early 1940's Hot Rod. Hopped up Model A or B motor,....a Winfield or Lion head (or something similar but not overwhelming in price), hot cam, insert bearings and duel Holley 94's,....a nice finned sideplate would be nice also,....fast and fun!

Now I believe I had read in a 4 banger thread before that B's have a better oiling system? Is this right?

Lastly, and very important,..... is the "B" and the "Diamond A" the same engine, with the Diamond A being made in a certain timeframe, etc.,......stronger and not prone to cracking,...or is it just as the B,..prone to cracking??

Thanks!

 

Yes, this is true.

I stumbled upon a b motor a few years ago, then i found a guys web page, he sunk 10 grand into his b motor and it made about 150 hp or somthing stupid, Then the b went up for sale. Used the cash to get a 99a Flathead.

 

www.hotforhotfours.com this might be of interest.

 

yeah I was scanning that page before,...very cool info there. thanks

 

Definitely join FAST. Without a doubt.

 

B lower end--I see the extra strength as the greater stiffness from thicker crank. This in my theory results not in parts that don't break but in perhaps a longer and happier life for the center main and the other bearings.

Ports...B and A ports are different. Secrets flowed an A and promised a comparison, but never delivered...I've heard opinions both ways on flow.
Who thinks or knows what on here??

 

This would be a good addition of knowledge if anyone has some info!!??

 

Scrubbed the block's deck up a little more tonight,..DAMN its cold!

Found that the deck has its fair share of tiny shallow pits. Some areas have more pitting than others,...nothing that I'd consider deep, and then there's some area with nothing at all!??
Here's some shots,....at least its something for now to give an idea of what I'm dealing with!!?? Of course you'll see the moon craters of pitting in the pistons,...there's NOTHING even remotley close to this on the block itself!!! I'm not sure if this corrosion has affected the cylinder walls,...you guys would know better than I.

If you look towards the upper right hand area of this photo, you'll see a light silvery area,...there you can get a clear look at the pitting, the other dark brown stuff is just crud to be cleaned off though it has yielded to be hiding the pitting till its cleaned off. Yes,....the pic could be better!! Sorry.


In this photo, look towards the lower left corner, at the first two valves,...you can see a clear example of the pitting between the first two valve holes and the water jacket holes,....that's what I'm dealing with here.


Hopefully Bruce and I will be getting together to look it over with some experienced eyes. I know they can be decked but I'm not sure how much, nor do I know what an experienced 4 banger guy would consider pits to be "too far gone" and what would be considered "shallow" and easily workable/fixable?

Bruce?....Artiki?....Brent?.....??

 

Got to be honest, I don't know myself how much can be decked. You got to watch for the top of the pistons popping up and hitting the head, though you can have your head fly-cut to allow for that, so I guess the next thing that could cause a problem would be the top piston ring - and that is a good way down the slug to cause any grief. Other than that, you just need to be able to make sure that the head gasket can do it's job and seal correctly.

Haven't got a photo to hand but the face of my block is pitted in one or two places, even after facing, and the gasket still seals good. I reckon you'll be good to go with that block.

 

Any decking should be absolute minimum, I believe, just til flat spots outnumber the craters...minor pits not right on fire ring or whatever are survivable, and some very experienced racers I know of just FILL craters in non-critical areas to support gaskets. Any milling should not be done as "take .0** offa it" but as smallest skim possible followed by inspection and more skimming as necessary. Going to the bottom of all pits on an engine's weakest part is not called for...excercise judgement and be conservative!
Some old issues of Secrets show deck blueprint thickness for A's and B's...don't recall numbers, but B's definitely thinner than you want to start with.

 

I did'nt see anything about it , so i'll interject that I have heard old timers refer to 35-42 fours as the "C" engine - Truck and industrial from what I gather, the B or C is worlds better than an A ,full oil pressure and hardened seats in the "C",I think the C has insert bearing as well, I have two freinds who have vintage midget race cars That they actually vintage race as well as gennies, neither would consider an A engine for racing or touring, I once built a "B" a long time ago and used their expertese and advice as well as some of their used, but not used up race parts, all the A,B,C motor's can be bored out at least .125 over if not more from my recollection, but I may be wrong on that part. pistons come up often on Egay. Stay away from cast iron pistons. (no brainer) They also show up occasionally. GAD! that was a long time ago and haven't thought about it for years. The guys are still around (one asked me about a year ago if i knew of any A cpes for sale)

 

Thanks for weighing in again guys.

I was thinking along the same lines as both Artiki and Bruce,...just as much as the deck isn't horrible or to bad and the gasket seals perfectly! As far as fly-cutting the head,...yeah I knew that was going to have to happen right off the bat when I looked at the pitting and thought about the decking.

Bruce,...when were you looking to come on over to PA?......let me know when you do. Then I can get your eyes to help me out here so I'll know better what I'm really dealing with here.

just dont want to turn this into a money pit engine!!

 

GasRus

I am going to start out by saying that I am glad you made your post and your input is valued but I think this is how so much incorrect information gets started here on H.A.M.B. No one really knows for sure how the term C ever got started other than the speculation that it had something to do with the C cast on top of the cylinder head. Naturally with the letter B already in place for the "Police Head" application (another term) the C was next in line.

The next thing that needs to be clarified is that while the Model B did have "some" oil pressure, it WAS NOT a "full pressure" system. The Model B (or a Model C if you prefer) engine does not have --nor never did come from the factory with insert bearings. The closest thing to a Model B that had inserts is when the original Model B tooling was sold to the Germans and the Russians. The german-built G28T engine DID have insert bearings plus it was a true full-pressure piece. I have one in my race car. Someone made reference to the GAZ engine but w/o going into the politics of this, suffice it to say there is/was light years of difference between the G28 and the GAZ engine. Having owned one before I can tell you that I will never own one again however I do still own a G28.

The next thing that is a common myth on here is that all diamond blocks had hardened seats. I have 3 or 4 blocks that do not have seats so this is just a myth. Something else that is a myth is that seats need to be installed so a Model A/B can be run on unleaded gasoline. When the A/B was originally built, the patent for leaded gasoline was held by the Chevrolet brothers so Henry was not about to build his engine to use unleaded and pay a royalty to the compe***ion. Thus the A/B were built to use unleaded gasoline. I will tell you that Ford had a very strong in-house engine rebuilding program where he did install seats and press-on counterweights for rebuild applications that needed them. These would be remanufactured engines.

As far as cast iron pistons used in Model A's & B's in regular production, ...again I think this is a myth that someone has told you incorrectly. No where will you find anything that will prove iron pistons were used because that was a new feature that ole Hank was touting with the advent of the Model A. You are correct that in stock applications, .125" overbore (4" bore) is the norm. In racing applications and etc. we will sometimes go to .155" overbore using an .030 over 4" piston.

You mentioned your friends having Midgets that would not even consider a Model A/B engine for use in racing. Below is a pictuire of George Seel's flathead Model A powered midget where he races against other stock-block midgets (V8-60's on alcohol, etc.) --and most spectators will tell you that Georges car can handily walk away from almost every car in the field. George's car has been seen running in the Offy Midget cl*** with AARA and he can handle his own with them-- so my point is don't kid yourself into false thinking that a Model A engine cannot keep pace with a Model B or something else like a V8-60 or even an Offy.

Something that probably needs mentioning about why people think that a 'B' engine is superior to an 'A' engine is because they do have the appearance of a stronger crankshaft however one needs to view why this was done. With the advent of the Model B engine, the flywheel weight was decreased because Henry had found a better way to make a crankshaft. Not that anything was necessarily wrong with the old one but that the process now yielded a better crank at the same basic cost.

So this begs the question, how many people have ever seen a Model A crankshaft that has failed? I have seen a couple --HOWEVER I have seen just as many Model B's fail too. Therefore it would be tough to make a true statement about a Model B bottom end being stronger than a Model A bottom end. Most people that have experienced failed crankshafts in either applications find it was due to an incorrectly ground fillet in the journals --and/or a crankshaft that was improperly re-ground off-center during the rebuild. Nine times out of ten times this is caused because the crankshaft was bent. The easiest way to check this is to use a dial indicator after the flywheel has been installed.

I might add that there are all kinds of myths floating around saying that a Model A/B crankshaft must be stored in a verticle position or the crankshaft will bend ...but the truth of why most crankshafts are found bent when they are removed is because of poor maintenance of main bearing clearances.

I could go on but this is all going to be subjective. People are only going to believe what is beliveable to them, and banger mythology is full of "he said/she said" type of information. It is a shame but for some reason this is why the banger gurus (both here and elsewhere) just throw up their hands and say to heck with trying to get good info out there. I do appreciate your heart in trying to help GasRus because I think you were just relaying info that had been told to you.

Oh, and who started the myth about you cannot run over 6:1 compression ratio on babbit?

 

Message dragged over here from a PM exchange: someone get out to the garage with a camera and report!

The only A I have is a completely unexamined freeby lying dead behind the garage...my junkheap is composed entirely of B's.
The difference I have seen is hence only on paper, from upper block engineering drawings in some old issue of Secrets--which I now need to go find.
The difference I observed in these drawings was in the curvature leading up to the seats--it looked considerably different, and references made in the Model A flow test and other things I have read seem to support a difference. Now, I've got to see, and my A block is within a block of ice at 14 degrees...
I bet someone on HAMB has a couple of bare blocks and an electric camera...and maybe knows where to find the drawings. I'm going to search for those when I get home, but have no way to post them. I'm not going near the A block til global warming gets back into gear.
I'm going to repot this message over onto the board to troll for someone with a couple of blocks handy-- I feel a real need to see if there's a secret here or just a mistake. Obviously, port and valve openings are the same an in same locations, but the seat approach curve was way different in the drawings...and that may well be the most critical area for flow. Did Ford changeit? How? Why?
And why did the airflow dude promise a followup on B ports in his A port article and then disappear!

 

"Now, find a rare ohv conversion and you'll be in business. The B block is only the start."

i am pretty certain, i know where an ohv conversion is in a junkyard, what your saying is i should i look into getting it?

 

Brent
Your comments on the Gaz are interesting, I am talking with a Polish guy over here in the UK who believes he can get his hands on a number of military surplus Gaz motors possibly 10 or more. Am I wasting my time? I thought they were all counterweighted crank motors with B style blocks?
Cheers
Rich

 

Info I've gleaned over the years as a Model A Guru...

If you have a "diamond" block, it's an industrial engine. (this one has a lot less than 40 HP)....They were used on AC combines too...I think that the HP on them was in the middle 20's as far as HP goes...Either Model A or Model B....or Model C...which has full pressure oil on rods and crank, the B had it to the mains only...

I've even seen a "B" block (with c'ballanced crank) with a boss cast integral for a govenor...

The "C" marked head is a Model B head, ....it takes the same 3 bolt water pump used on 32-36 V8 engines....with a fan mounted to it...

The A and B heads have 4 bolts for the water pump...

You'll have to turn the crank on a Model B to fit it to the Model A block if my memory is right on this one...also I think that the rods are heavier. The B flywheel is lighter. The B cam cover if put on an A block will result in timing being off (this came from a Ford service bulitin if I remember right)

Don't sweat the lack of counterbalances on a A or B crank..there are a lot of guys who weld them on, (and drill for full presure oil)...don't think you have to have a c'balanced crank to live in this world...

I have a Worthington tractor, with early Ford parts in the ch***is...35 V8 rear end, 32 front axle, Diamond C block with c'balanced crank..and a stock A head...4 speed trans...boss for the fuel pump is blocked off, gravity feeds the carb...

My understanding is that the A blocks (and engines) were produced by the Fords until WW2.

The B blocks and C's (industrials) were made until 48.

B and C engines have the fuel pump boss, A's never had a fuel pump.

My understanding is that the serial number for the B's is on the back of the block..my "diamond" C has the serial number on the left side...

Don't be disappointed if your engine is s**** due to rust, cracks, etc.......I would say that most of them are today. A Model A rebuilder told me that for every 10 engines that get brought in for rebuilding, 9 hit the s**** yard....

the same fellow told me back 30 years ago that he wouldn't pay $25 for a complete engine due to this factor...he's the same guy making new rods for insert bearings for A's...

To put a B engine in a A you have to do some surgery on the oil pan (torch cuts) or rework a A pan to fit it. Use the A clutch housing and it will bolt in.

I hope that this info helps you guys out.

 

I went back and re-read all the posts..I missed the part about the GAZ engines..and it's German made counterpart...

I worked with a guy who was from Poland and he bought a GI GAZ Jeep and rebuilt it. He told me it was based on early Ford parts...and me being the Model A Guru, had to know all about it.

it had a Mallory style distributor and a downdraft carb...he had to rebuild it. he didn't mention babbit or insert bearings. He had a machine shop do all the machine work, he ***embled it.

He said that it was an underpowered "piece of ****"..and he sold it for what he had into it to a friend who used it for deer hunting..and was glad to get rid of it and get his money out of it.

One thing I did find was a photo in one of the Mechanixs Illustrated mags in 1951 of a captured GAZ jeep with an Air Force Sargeant looking under the opened hood...

I also found out that the last Model AA truck came out of the GAZ factory in 1948...so the Russians ran the production line longer than we did. I can't confirm this one, but I think I saw later Chevrolet based trucks withthe same A engines in a photo someplace. But this may have been the swap of an A engine into the Chevrolet ch***is. The truck was a 41-46 style...

I'm curious as to the production dates of the German insert bearing engine Brent in Ten u see uses in his race car.

A friend of the family was in Germany in WW2 and had a liberated German Ford car with a Model A engine. He was told to paint white stars on the doors and hood so the US army wouldn't take a shot at him!!! He was a good mechanic on Model A's and happened to get this one for free and had it running in jig time. (Peter "Doney" Gallagher from Beaver Island, MI, a good friend of my dad)...It had a middle 30's style body and was a 4 p***enger cabriolet styled body...

 

Wow...really?! What produces such a drastic loss in power over the 'non-diamond' blocks? I'm intrigued......

 

Great post!

 

Supposedly the Model B engine is prone to cracking around the valve seats. I have two of them, one with and one without a counterbalanced crank. "B" engines built after Nov. 1932 supposedly had counterbalanced cranks. Originally they were advertised at 50 h.p. instead of 40 as a Model A.

 

aw man,....i'm not sure how good they are but i just missed a chevy ohv conversion head on ebay,...went for a whopping $112 bucks!!! i totally forgot about it!!!

 

Brent,....would you weigh in on this in regards to abonecoupe's statement regarding the horsepower loss on a Diamond block? After talking with yourself and others currently building these blocks, if i remember what what i've been told, this statement is incorrect?? ....or am I mistaken?

As far as the block's usability,...I took a look at the latest 4 banger meeting posts and saw a pic of a deck,...that one looks like mine,..just as pitted,...I guess we'll see what's what if i ever get some bolts unstuck and this block to the machine shop to get it magnafluxed!! lol.

Thanks in advance!!

 

lots of interesting stuff!

The chase of Banger goodness is always exciting, I've got near on 7 banger blocks, but they are all A blocks....

very interesting

Outback