A friend of mine that has been hotroding a lot longer than I said never to put the tierod in front of the axle but I see it done. Whats the deal? Is this just a concern for street use? Cant get proper Akerman?
I can be made to work, but it is real tough to get proper ackerman angle. Plus, I think it generally looks like ***. Drag cars are a different story though, since they don't turn.
It's pretty much an Ackerman thing but there are plenty of modern cars running around with screwed up ackerman straight from the factory. Drag cars, of course, don't have to worry about it. LJ
no worries mate.....I've driven thousands of miles in past HotRods with that setup..... over 60,000 miles.
Not only is ackerman a problem, but theres no protection. Imagine catching a chunk of asphalt straight on the tie rod at 75 mph. Bend that thing inward and the front wheels pigeon toe. Kinda hard to steer.
It bothers some people, some it don't. Although I have learned here on the HAMB people have different names for different things, we always referred to the tie rod out front as a true sucide front end. Now I see that term used for any axle hung out in front of the radiator. It works, I've done it, will problably do it again.
just because some do it does not mean it is right. most dont know what a poor driving car vs a well driving car is. there are plenty of front steer factory cars out there and they work right. go buy a book on suspension set up and read all you can then set up the front end.
Ackerman is figured on cars with solid axles and one piece tie rods, it is a line that runs through the centerline of your king pin through the center line of your tie rod hole to the center of your rear axle, to get proper Ackerman with the tie rod in front, the centerline of the tie rod hole still has to be in phase with the other points, you would have to bend your spindle arm's way out,.. can be done but I wouldn't do it. (IMHO) ((P.S.,.... If your Ackerman is off you'll know it some rainy night on a freeway going into a long sweeping curve at like 70 m.p.h. or so))
PM Inkorekt on here........he'll set ya straight. It's not a problem if you get the tie rod ends out toward the wheel far enough. Ackerman explained simply goes like this: You want to be able to draw a big imaginary "V" under your car. You want the point of the V ending at your punkin on your rear axle...or in the middle of your rear axle. You wan the arms of the V to run through your king pin bosses and then through your tie rod ends. Like lining up the sights on a rifle. Think of it like that. The tie rod end is the rear sight and the king pin boss is the front sight.....you want to shoot the rear end right in the middle. Know what I mean? If you get them sights lined up to where you're shooting the rearend in the middle, you'll be golden in the ackerman dept.
I have bought and read the book. I just dont know everything, so I ask. If you understand Akerman then you understand where the pivot point has to be to work. The pivot is buried deep in the wheel if its in front. This would require some coordination with the wheels used in order to get this. much simpler to get correct if its behind. However, suspension is a comprimise at best. Akerman is never correct in all turning radias's. I thought there might be more to it, I guess not.
Well, hell.....why didn't you say that in the first place. I was explaining stuff like you were retarded. ...now I look retarded.
Probably the reason you were told never to put the tie rod out front was the potential danger of it being bent in any slightest contact with a post, a bumper, a pedestrian, a dog, and the disastrous results of such contact. The Ackerman thing is usually doable with the steering arms bent forward and out just shy of the edge of the wheel but not so close that a low tire or sudden bounce will allow the sidewall to kiss the tie rod end, ya know!
Well your clearly not retarded, you know your ****. I thought there was another reason I had no clue about. When he told me this, he said "NEVER, NEVER, NEVER" He must have been refering to the danger some of the others have pointed out. Peace Brother.
Just a funny story, Back in the 70's a guy started showing up at our cruise night, with a T Bucket he bought that had suicide steering and front suspension, his little daughter liked to jump up and down on his tie rod, and he would rest his foot on it when he was talking to someone,... he finally drilled some holes through it so he could mount his front license plate there and thought it was cool.
One of my fellow hotrodders has been running his tie rod out front for over 5000 miles! I don't care for the way it "looks", but also know that a good 70% or more of the current T Buckets are set up that way. They 're apparently not concerned about it.
A front steer tie rod is no problem. They have been used over the years in a lot of cars. We have driven a couple of these front tie rod cars for many miles with no problem. Speedway motors has sold a front steer unit and axle for years. Axles are dumb and stupid, just dont tell them where the tie rod is and they work fine.
My wifes car, its a 95 Ford Explorer. Guess what? Its got 150k miles on it and the front bumpers have never hit anything. Amazing I know. I guess it means we'll never hit anything. C'mon guys, mileage means nothing. Its not like your car is immune to catastrophy after 500, 5000, 50000 miles. Mileage has nothing to do with it. If your going 60, its not going to take much hitting that bar that would bend it. Its a gamble. Since my baby girl will be riding with me when she gets a little older, its not a gamble I wanted to take. Not like having the axle out front is all that much better, but that I beam can take a harder hit than a hollow tube.
Excellent point Frank. However, I can take your arguement and make a case for NOT driving hot rods at all. A roadster?!?!? Well, that has no roof a person could flip it. A 32 Ford coupe?!?!? well, that has no crumple zones or airbags. Its not worth the risk. Tie rod out front??? well, you could hit a dog and then it would be hard to steer. What a fella should do is take all this cautionary information and hang the tie rod out front and then drive it like he's got a tie rod out front. In other words, be aware of the shortcomings of your ride and drive accordingly. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not making a case for being an outlaw thrill seeker. I'm just saying that you have to weigh the positive (driving something cool) with the negative (probably a tad unsafe). Frank says he's not willing to risk it. I think that's a wise choice. In no way do I want what I've written to challenge Frank personally. I'm not. He makes an excellent point. I also would not risk my daughter's life in that way. ....but I'd still build the car and hang the tie rod out front if I had to.
I normally just laugh when I hit a dog with my truck at 70mph, but I probably wouldn't be laughing if that same impact caused my front wheels to point toward each other. Just sayin..
Totally agree with you, Tingler. All we are saying is you just have to decide what is comfortable for you. I had some flexibility in my build and found it possible to run the bar behind the axle with very little effort so I went with it. You can compromise on some things more than others.
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