Sheetmetal repair without filler....

I stopped at the Sunchaser Tools booth at the GoodGuys show yesterday and was checking out Ken Sakamoto's "Friction System" for dent removal in sheetmetal. They offer a 3-day workshop in Pomona on how to use their system. This looks a lot like John Kelly's friction disk except it has ridges on the disk. I as wondering if anyone has been to this workshop or has any experience with Sakamoto's system? Here's a link: http://www.sunchasertools.com/
What got my interest was the "bring your own damaged panel" to the workshop and you'll go home with a straight panel. Kinda pricey but it could be worth it in the long run...I have lots of bent panels that need more skill than I currently have in this area.

 

I've been using his shrinking disc for years, never took the cl***, just watched a demo at a show. It's a good product and it has it's place but it's not magic. It's a slow and annoying prosess, I use it only when I need some very controlled shrinking. I still use tradition metalfinishing techniques (pick & file) on most repairs, much faster then the disc.

 

I have Kens shrinking disc as well. got the disc and video a few years back. it works real good on shrinking streched metal on flat panels. I have used it on fenders as well with good results. I beleive that whit his cl*** and 3 days worth of training on the disc use as well as body working techniques you shouold have great results. I have seen his demo's in person and when Ken does it it looks real easy! as you said a little pricey, dont remember what the cost was but I do know I have been wanting to go to the cl***. If you have a lot of metal work to do and plan on doing it yourself the cl*** may be worth your time and money.

 

I have had one of his shrinkling disks for about 6 years, it is an awesome tool.

It really helps when you are hammer welding, the weld is what shrinks and pulls the metal and causes the distortion. You want to hammer the weld and make the weld area grow back to it's intended shape.

Witht he disk it is ok to over hammer the weld slightly without hurting anything. You just bring it back to where it has to be with the disk.

Once you get used to how to shrink with the disk you will wonder how you ever got along without it.

 

I am willing to bet that any repair done with a disk like this requires some filler........save your money.

 

It's $665 for the three day course...Sat/Sun/Mon from 9:00 to 3:00, with the option to stay as long as you wish. The guarantee is that you will leave the workshop having fully mastered the techniques.

 

The disc is great but don't buy into Socamoto's BS. Get the video or watch a demo and then just try it out for yourself. I believe in the video he says if you're a professional you will need to watch the video ten times to learn the friction system. He also tells you to break the disc in by running it on concrete, I wonder if that helps sell more of them. I have not tried John Kelly's disc but I'd but it works just as well and might last longer too. The sunchaser disc always cracks where the ribs are pressed in. One last word of caution if you like to have friends don't use a shrinking disc when they are around. It is the most annoying tool on the face of the planet!

Brick

 

Hey,

I've been trying to stay outa the body & fender business for over
thirty years. In the "good ol' days" as my old man usta say, I used
a torch, hammer and dolly to shrink metal. I moved on to a dead
60 grit grinding disc and my old Sioux grinder, to produce the friction
necessary to shrink metal. I've since tried the fluted disc, as invented
by Scott knight, and sold by Ken /Sunchaser, and have also used the
same type disc, as used, and sold by John Kelly. I couldn't tell any
difference between the two discs. One thing for sure.....I wouldn't
use either of these discs WITHOUT A FACESHIELD. The stainless
steel these discs are made from, will over time, workharden.
I have no connection with Ken, but if I had no prior metalworking
experance, and someone could teach me this skill, in a weekend,
I say that's good value to money. Most of the restoration shops,
who do metalfinishing and lead work charge $75.00-$150.00 an
hour.

S****ey Devils C.C.

 

I was a disbeliever in this tool for my whole career until I made and tried one. It is a big time saver for me now. It does work well, wish I had of listened! If it saves me time, it also saves my customers money. Get or make one now.

Tim @ www.irrationalmetalworks.com

 

I've used a Sakamoto disc for a long time. I also bought the two video set of how-to. It was a great investment. 3 day workshop is a waste of money.... buy or borrow the videos. I'd lend you mine but I haven't seen them in years.... forgot who I lent them to. From what I've heard/read, the flat discs are just as good and far cheaper. My plan is to make some myself.

 

Choprods,

Plenty of people are doing good work without any filler at all. A shrinking disc makes it easier to do.

Ken's disc and video are very useful, but over-priced. I bet his cl*** is a good one though. If he is the closest teacher to you, he would be a good choice for learning how to fix dents.

There are plenty of good metalshapers teaching dent repair and other useful metal working techniques. Wray Schelin has a video showing dent repair and the shrinking disc: wesparts@charter.net He also makes the flat disc with a safety edge. My low crowned disc now comes with a DVD showing how to use it, but the tool is easy to make and learn how to use on your own. Just do your best to damage a practice panel with lumps and dents, smooth with a hammer and dolly and use the disc dozens of times to see the effect.

Here is an album showing how easy it is to make and use a shrinking disc:

http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/communityalbums.cgi?action=openalbum&albumid=9980121727059

John www.ghiaspecialties.com

 

I have one of John's discs (purchased pre DVD) And can atest to how well it works. Used it over the weekend to repair sone 32 hood sides that had been warped from welding in a blister. it is now flat! Would have taken forever to pick and file etc....

John if you do not mind sharing what alloy stainless do you use to make the disc? I copuld use a smaller diameter disc.

Tim

 

i almost never get to see the cars finished.
also, a shrinking disc (flat disc with safety edges, wouldn`t use a disc with serrations or without a safety edge) is about 40 dollars to buy one . a made both of mine for free. (my buddy does stainless work and was able to pirate a piece)

wouldn`t spend a fortune to learn to use a disc, wray or john both have reasonably priced intros.

choprods, i can show you lots of photos .

gary

 

Got links to the $40 discs and Wray and Johns intros?

Thanks!

Dave

 

Pimpin, I bought one of these dics at Pamona when Birdman Stewart was working for Scott Knight. Got a free Sat. morning seminar with Scott demo'ing disc. I gotta say watching a master metal man such as Scott sure makes it look easy! The key, Scott taught was trying to get the stretch to one spot then shrink that. he cut a piece out of trunck lid and put it back, when he was done, you would be hard pressed to see the spot.

Charlie, if you like the disc and just want to try it, I will let you try mine if your up this way. I also have the oringinal instruction pamphlet that Scott put out. I could make you a copy if I can find it! I have a B&D sidewinder that I use for it, works better than my Soiux did. Noisey but effective tool.

 

Charlie, I have the friction disk videos (#1 and #2) and your welcome to borrow them.

PM me.

The disk does work good, but very time consuming.

 

Never heard of the friction disk, what does it do? how does it work.

 

Does the disc bring up the low spots or does it "push" the high spots down.
Thinking out loud I would think it shrinks the high spots down. So if you have low spots you can hammer them up and then use the disc to smooth it all out. Is that right?? I've seen it in use and it really does work. It takes a lot of time though since you use the disc for a short tme them take a cool/wet cloth and place it on the panel where you worked. Then you hit it with the disc again. Repeat until smooth.
Paul

 

sounds to me like its heating up the spot just like you would do with a torch to shrink, no? I'm just ***uming this becuase it was mentioned that you use a rag afterwards. which i have seen people do while shrinking with a torch,

 

hi dave,
go on ebay, look up e-wheels , he sells discs and videos, goes under the name e-wheel.
i don`t know johns info, look in his post (john kelly) on this thread.

shrinks only the high spots, unlike a torch that shrinks everything it heats.

gary

 

Hey,

The disc generates heat, through friction, when in contact with the
metal. Unlike a torch flame, which can be a little tough to control on
thin, or late model metal, the disc can be controled by pressure and
speed ,on the panel. Some straightening with a hammer and dolly,
prior to using the disc on the stretched/high areas of the panel, will
speed up the repair. The disc will also raise low areas, just as a torch
will do, if used carefully.
I was havin' a good day, 'till Gary posted that picture of that E-type
Jaguar lower bonnet panel.......I have nightmears about those things
just as some people are afraid of circus clowns.

S****ey Devils C.C.

 

I still say these repairs will have at least"hi build" type primer in more than one coat....=that my friends IS filler....
not a bad repair but not "without filler"... the peice/pic above with the grinder marks is a perfect example....
Denial is common in metal repair circles- ,and is also a river in Egypt,depending on how it's spelled.

 

With that mentality even the top finishcoat is "filler", ...especially if you colorsand & buff it.

Choprods, I am definitely not picking on you because there are likely more that share your same feelings but my personal feeling is that you need save your judgment until you have actually tried using one.

IMO what is truly missing in our society is that we have lost the meaning of craftsmanship. Very few crafts these days have an apprenticeship where the craftsman learns how to correctly perform the craft. I guess it is because this costs money and most people today want to take the easy way out and either learn it off a DVD or "fake it" as they go.

I recently had a Fordbarn.com workshop at my shop where I actually showed about 77 people how to properly straighten vintage sheetmetal. Some guys went to the enth degree to ensure their panels would only need a coat or two of primer before a finishcoat. Others did not want to spend the time it takes to make the repair that nice. My point is folks, do not kid yourself about sheetmetal repairs & bodywork. This is a very labor intensive and time consuming task to do it right. A shrinking disc, --or an english wheel, ---or many other tools helps speed up the task if you have mastered the art of using them but many people here do not understand the concept of sheetmetal shaping or how to properly work those tools any more than I know how to tune a Top Fuel Dragster. Like I told the guys that attended the workshop. If you are buying these type tools just because it will make the job easier, you are wasting your time, money, and efforts. Be realistic with your goals.

 

Well said Brent.

Choprods, I think we can all agree that most people would rather have 95% straight steel and 5% filler rather than 5% straight steel with 95% filler. Some on the other hand want 100% straight steel, those people need to contact Cole!!!

And my disc has to be one of my favorite tools.

 

Tim,

The standard material is 18 gage 304 stainless, but you can use 20 gage cold rolled steel if you put enough crown in the disc for rigidity. Check for cracks before every use! Anything that will heat enough friction to heat the metal until it steams when quenched will work.

Choprods, You should follow my disc making instructions that were posted earlier in a link and try one for yourself. You can make a panel as smooth as you want to, polish it with scotch brite, then clear coat. Steel can look like polished stainless, aluminum can look like a mirror. To see what can be done with a shrinking disc, click here:

http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/communityalbums.cgi?ownerid=9990093068868

and select my "drastic shrinking" as well as my shrinking disc album. You can create reverse shapes, reduce huge bulges, smooth lumps, and do metal finishing with it. You can fix over-stretched metal which is a great thing to be able to do if a person is just learning metalshaping or fixing dents. It takes away the fear of hammer and dollying too much because you can easily fix whatever needs shrinking. It makes fixing oil cans a lot easier as well.

I don't sell on ebay, but Wray does. If you want a flat disc, just be sure to buy from him, not the other guy who is a pirate. I think Wray's user name is ewheel. Go to my web site and contact me if you want one of mine, or to learn how to make your own low crowned disc which is the most versatile disc there is. My custom Metal Bodywork DVD shows how a**** other things, or look at my album and follow the free instructions on how to make one there. Go to www.sunchasertools.com if you want one of theirs. Go to www.metalmeet.com and search the forums for a lot more on shrinking discs, and check out www.metalshapers.org as well.

The disc is a great learning tool that takes the mystery out of beautiful metal finishing, ans well as making metal shaping easier for people who do not want to become masters, but want to be able to make beautiful metal creations with a little patience.

John www.ghiaspecialties.com

 

John,

Thanks. I really like the quality of the disk I bought from you. How much are the smaller higher crown ones? Might buy rather than make if cost is right....

Tim

 

I don't know about doing bodywork, but I've done a little metal finishing on stainless trim - and there ain't no filler on that.

I'd believe that someone with some skill and some practice could do it - if they wanted to.

If you need pics, I guess you could PM dvanecek and see if he ended up with the '46 Dodge turn sig bezel I did (I think he probably did). It'll be the one that looks nice on the front, but has torch and hammer marks on the back.

Personally, I'd use a couple coats of primer on a fender - but I'm a lazy ****.

-bill

 

Hey,

Choprods...... I would think, though I've not heard it mentioned
that the final operation of the metalfinishing task would be to
cross grind the repair with a closed coat 60 grit disc to remove
any deep scratches, and to blend the repair to the surrounding
metal. This followed up with a p*** on an 80 grit disc, or DA would
remove the balance of any scratches, no high-build primers, no
"Green Monster" nitro putty, no other fillers necessary. I've never
ben able to make money by trying to cover up work I didn't do
correctly to begin with. Even given today's paint material costs,
the labor is still the lion's share of the tab.

S****ey Devils C.C.

 

Do yourself a favor..if you do go on ebay to get a disc, don't buy the one from Wolfe's. It's a p.o.s, poor quality..period. It had a major wobble, unbalanced, plus when he punched the recess..it was waaay off. I made him send me another, thinking maybe he sent me a junk one or something...nope it was a p.o.s too. Save your money.