I am looking for a lot of advice... My dad and I just bought this car: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=134160&highlight=1952+buick My mom p***ed away 2 1/2 years ago at only 57 and since then my dad and I have stepped up our car shows. Ironically the pileup is right around the day she died (october 13th) and Billetproof here in Detroit is right around her birthday (June 2nd) so they also offer a good distraction at what would normally be a depressing time. After this years Detroit Autorama, he called me to tell me he wanted to build a car (he has always been more into bikes) and I jumped at the chance. We found a 455 buick with trans first and then found the car above about 8 miles from our house. We paid 500 bucks for the car and it is sitting on a 78 regal ch***is, all the trim is there and the gl*** is good. The body is rock solid and the frame has been blasted and painted black. Our goal is to get it back on the road for the 2008 Woodward Dream Cruise and possibly drive to the Pileup after that. I have always been into cars and traditional Hot rods and kustoms for the last 5 or 6 years but this is my first pre 64 car. I have built several cars over the years, swapped engines, built engines, and even painted a couple of cars (one turned out, one didn't ). But I have never attempted anything with quite this much fabrication needed. I have a 110 mig welder, big *** compressor, die grinder, air body tools, and whole $hit load of hand tools so out side of a set of torches, I think I am set. My dad owns a tool and die shop so he can make just about anything we need. But I have a whole lot of questions, but I'll start with just a few. Keep in mind that we hope to keep this on the cheap side, we only 900 in the car and motor right now. Any advice on where to start? What is the logical order to build this thing? I read the post in the tech archive on building a daily driver and found it quite helpful but am just looking for more advice. The car came with the 78 regal steering column but was a floor shift car. Would it be easier to switch to an ididit column? What do those things cost? Any shifters that are cheap and plentiful that I can find in a junk yard? There is no pedal ***emebly, master cylinder or power brake booster. Again, any setups that are cheap and plentiful that I can find in a junk yard? ANd last question for now, I need seats. Should I just measure the car and get a bench that will fit, are there any particular cars whose seats lend themselves to this easily? What about the back seat? I love this board and have been on here for about a year and a half under the name daveinwestland, but never had much to add as I didn't have a car. When we bought this, I thought would get a new name for a few reasons. One is our last name is nickel, my dad's shop is called double nickel tool and daveinwestland would look kinda weak on a hamb badge .
Go real slow. Hit as many shows that you can and look for cars that are built with similar components to yours. Rod builders normally are willing to share their experience with you. For mock-up, start with the things you can't move, finish with the things you can. Develop a clear vision of your outcome before starting and things will go smoother. The basic things you can't move are the radiator and front and rear axle. I like to start at the front and work my way towards the rear. If you are choosing to locate the engine/trans in the Regal location you may get lucky and not have to modify the firewall or floorboard. Then again you may find it better to relocate the mounts. The column and steering shaft are typically the last things to mount. Use a firewall mounted master cylinder, this lets gravity do lots of the brake bleeding for you. Can't give you a direct OEM application for one to use. Any seats with the correct external dimensions can be made to work, just need to fab up some brackets. Get to know your local salvage people, they are normally happy to sell you anything they have.
Building a whole car is one huge job. To make it easier, I cut it down to a whole lot of little jobs. Little jobs go easy, and after a while, a huge job has been completed. Think through what you want to do, work in a safe manner, and dont ever give up. It WILL be on the road.
Hey, my first post... I'm 55, been doing car stuff forever.....on the cheap. You are off to the wrong start with considering an aftermarket column...way too much to invest at your starting point. Hotrodding started with boneyards. Take a look at 1960s to early 1970s columns. That's before they got bulky & ugly. They are simple & easy to install. I've used a few 69-72 Chevy pick-up A/T columns because they are slim & easy to fit. They have a "trunion" joint about halfway up to help with alignment. Plus the lower shaft has a "saftey-collapsable", "slip fit" so you can shorten it easy. 67-68? are solid shaft. They are cheap on ebay usually...hard to find in junkyards. I'm guessing the opening on your dashboard would not be big enough for a bulky column from a mid 70s & newer with the ignition built in. You may or may not need a tilt, depending on how the column fits by the engine. Skip the tilt if the angle is fine.....less stuff to break in a fixed column. Pedals, boosters & other things can be found in junkyards if you have time to measure & look. I guess I'd start with mock-up of engine & trans put in place while leaving some room for the column. Then pedals etc.
Thanks guys for the responses, the steering column input was exactly the type ofthing I was looking for. I have found frame pads from a place that specializes in fitting 455's in Regals (like my frame) then I can use stock mounts. I figure I will have to build the trans mount but have heard that I may be able to modify a factory one. The pedal ***embly/power booster and master cylinder is going to be tricky for me. Couldn't I just use a Regal/Monte Carlo/Cutl*** one and mount it where I need to on the firewall? WHat should I be looking for as far as measurements and things go?
The Regal/MonteCarlo/Cutl***/GrandPrix master/booster would be the first one I'd look for. Get the brake pedal, booster, bracket, master cylinder, etc. Use the master as a core and get a reman one from your favorite parts house shortly before final ***embly. Having a goal as to what the "finished" product will be is definitely important. Not so much the color or interior, but the main "vibe" of the car... how low, how true-to-tradition, etc. How much customizing are you gonna do, etc. You building a lead sled, mild custom, or just a cool old car, or....? The main thing is to get the major mechanical & structural systems in-shape first. (Sounds like you already have a good start here.) This includes engine & ****** placement (along with radiator, steering, etc that might interfere), rear axle, suspension (including any lowering), brakes, and so forth. Constanly think about the car as a whole, but tackle individual tasks with that in-mind. For example, if I mount this bracket here, will it interfere with exhaust or parking brake cables later? Next, make sure the body is aligned properly. Get the doors opening and closing without sticking or rubbing and mind your gaps. (You may even have to shim some body mounts with a washer or twelve to get it right.) Same with hood & decklid. After that, repair any rust as necessary. Once you have a solid foundation, work on the pretty stuff.... cosmetics. A lot of people do this after getting the car on the road, and it's not a bad way to go. The search feature here on the HAMB (and Google, for that matter) will answer a lot of your questions... the ones that don't get answered to your satisfaction, ask them here. Most of the really knowledgeable HAMBers will share with you quite a bit... and rarely make fun of you for asking questions they might think as very basic. (Styling questions might get you some flak, so get a thick skin and fire away!)
Keep in mind that a lot of this stuff is for 78 Regals with a 78 Regal body... not a 55 year old body on that frame. Nothing is ever bolt-in. Expect to modify EVERYTHING... Not saying the frame pads won't work, but I would expect to modify them, or the firewall, or both to make them work. Sometimes you'll find that it's easier to make a pad or bracket or whatever easier than it is to modify something to fit.
Thanks, I expected to have to modify them but thought (and I very well may be wrong, ask my wife) that it would still be easier to modify something than to ****ch build it. But like I said, I have not done this before and you would certainly know better than me.
Double - A couple of thoughts: 1) No matter how you cut it, the project will cost more and take more time than you budget. I've owned 40+ cars and 20+ bikes, and the axiom has held true with just about every one. 2) There will be unexpected setbacks at just about every turn. Don't get discouraged by them; they're a part of the process. 3) Focus initially on the ABSOLUTE BASICS - suspension, steering, brakes, electical. These are the things that will leave you stranded on the side of the road. get the damned thing rolling stopping, and steering first - cosmetics and and performance last. 4) DON'T make the mistake of buying bling first - fancy wheels, chrome doodads, etc until AFTER you've addressed 3) above. You'll blow your budget faster than you can say speedparts. If you're looking for advice, I live in the Detroit Metro area, too...PM me if you need anything specific.
It really all depends on the situation. You know what fabrication skills you (and your dad) have better than I do... If your dad is a tool & die maker, he'll find lotsa things easier to fab or mod than it would be for me... and perhaps some vice-versa. There have been times when I've bought an adapter thing, and sent it back once I saw that making a new bracket would be simpler (or in some other way better) than mod'ing the "bought" piece. Other times, I use the adapter as designed, and modify the car to fit. I'm just saying look at it from all angles. But don't over-****yze. Jump in there and do it! VERY well-said!
The pedal ***embly/power booster and master cylinder is going to be tricky for me. Couldn't I just use a Regal/Monte Carlo/Cutl*** one and mount it where I need to on the firewall? WHat should I be looking for as far as measurements and things go?[/quote] Just make sure that the firewall on your Buick is on the same angle as your master cylinder donor car. I picked up a pedal/booster/MC ***y at the junkyard, thinking that I would use it for setup purposes only, but once I got it home I realized the MC was for use on a car with an angled firewall and my IHC p/u has a vertical firewall. OOPS! The reservoir in the MC was deeper at the back to be level when mounted on the angled firewall. The bore sizes were right for my braking system so I just looked for a different MC for use on a vertical firewall, easy to do at the time as I was working at a parts house. If you need to do this I would recommend asking around to find a really good parts guy who can look up specs on parts, as opposed to the trained chimps most places have working for them. A good parts guy who knows how to find parts for your build can be worth his and your weight in gold. I would also try to break jobs down into smaller sub***emblies as it is easier to feel like you accomplished something if you finish small jobs regularly instaed of always having a bunch big things partly done. Good luck Darren
Thanks, yeah no bling here. That's the approach we were hoping to take, get it dependable then worry about the rest. Plus we are on the broke side, my dad owns a tool and die shop but as you can guess it almost ends up costing him money to stay open. Where are you at near woodward? I lived off Marshall in Ferndale (behind the cemetaries) for 5 years.
Just make sure that the firewall on your Buick is on the same angle as your master cylinder donor car. I picked up a pedal/booster/MC ***y at the junkyard, thinking that I would use it for setup purposes only, but once I got it home I realized the MC was for use on a car with an angled firewall and my IHC p/u has a vertical firewall. OOPS! The reservoir in the MC was deeper at the back to be level when mounted on the angled firewall. The bore sizes were right for my braking system so I just looked for a different MC for use on a vertical firewall, easy to do at the time as I was working at a parts house. If you need to do this I would recommend asking around to find a really good parts guy who can look up specs on parts, as opposed to the trained chimps most places have working for them. A good parts guy who knows how to find parts for your build can be worth his and your weight in gold. I would also try to break jobs down into smaller sub***emblies as it is easier to feel like you accomplished something if you finish small jobs regularly instaed of always having a bunch big things partly done. Good luck Darren[/quote] So I need to look for somethign compatable with the sotck 78 regal brake system and that was setup to be mounted on a firewal that is on the same angle as the 52? Could I just box in an area of the firewall and accommodate that angle?
my approach would be 1. get the body mounted correctly and all gaps correct, this includes making sure the wheelbase is corrct and front suspension will line up. 2. decide on engine combo. 455 olds buick pontiac 500 cadillac would make a nice driver, just get a running engine that you can rebuild later if needed. small chevy would be easy here also 3. get suspension serviceable/driveable along with brakes 4. seats could be taken from basically any luxury car and late model cars will have leather, just depends on how you're doing your build. picking up complete seats from a late model buick or pontiac may be a god bet. 5. wiring will be your choice, either wire it yourself if you can or buy a universal "hot rod" kit and string it up this should get you running and driving along with some satin black and white or silver roof. once the car is driveable its much more enjoyable to work on and change as needed. the non moving hulk thats been pushed backand forth across the garage can wear you down as the project goes on. use as many salvaged pieces as you can to keep costs down and keep the project moving. the good thing about the 78 regal ch***is is many circle track racers use these "metric" ch***is in the lower buck cl***es so you can get better brakes/suspension pieces cheaply. Most importantly, enjoy the time with your dad.
My dad retired from the tool and die world about 6 years back; I *get* where you're comin' from - machine tooling is a virtual ghost town these days. I'm up the street a ways from Fashionable Ferndale; my last house was behind Duggan's...
So I need to look for somethign compatable with the sotck 78 regal brake system and that was setup to be mounted on a firewal that is on the same angle as the 52? Could I just box in an area of the firewall and accommodate that angle?[/quote You could go this route, but I think you would find less fabrication time if you just found a MC with the same bore size. I found the master that I needed was a stock S-10 unit ( dirt cheap ). It had the same bore size and even the same bolt pattern for mounting. 10-15 minutes with a parts catalogue saved me hours of fab time, not to mention that my firewall still looks relatively smooth without a big hump to adapt the MC ***y. Like I said before, if you can find a parts guy who is willing to help you look up what you need without needing a stock application it can be so useful. When I worked at the parts house there were two of us who were the go to guys for the hotrodders, I looked after the guys building all the really old stuff, while the other guy was a muscle car/stock car racing expert. The rest of the guys on the counter spent the day looking up Hyundai and minivan parts. I know the two of us enjoyed working on this stuff, and when the parts guy is interested in the stuff he's working with, he is much more likely to put out the extra effort to find what you need. Just speaking from experience. Darren
Here is a stupid question, when you say to make sure it is the same bore size what do you mean? Would it be the proper bore size for a 78 regal? I would like to do power brakes, which would mean a booster too. And what about a pedal ***embly?
The bore size of the master cylinder should be matched up with the relative sizes of the calipers & wheel cylinders. Since you have a 78 Regal ch***is, you should try to find out what bore size the master cylinder from a 78 Regal was. (GM enineers already took care of the engineering headaches so you don't have to.) Many pedal ***embly/booster/master cylinder combinations will physically interchange, but not necessarily function the way intended. But, as a general rule, you want a power-***isted brake pedal to have a 5:1 ratio. This means that the measurement from the center of the pedal pad to the center of the pedal pivot should be about 5 times the measurement from the point where the pushrod pivots on the pedal arm to the pedal pivot. See this diagram (Source: ecihotrodbrakes.com): Keep in mind when you are choosing a location for the pedal: - Make sure you mount it such that you have full pedal travel. You should be able to bottom out the master cylinder before the pedal comes in contact with the floorboard or any other obstruction. - Make sure the booster doesn't interfere with the valve covers on tha big wide Buick engine. Make sure there is enough room to remove the driver side valve cover without removing the booster. There are all kinds of shapes & sizes of boosters out there... they all do more or less the same thing, so in most cases you will do fine just finding one that will physically fit where you want it. - Make sure the brake pedal and steering column won't be fighting for the same space. It shouldn't be too hard to find a whole ***embly (pedal, bracket, booster, master) from one vehicle that will fit your car. If you get the whole ***embly, it will save you a ton of guesswork.
check out pro-touring.com in the brake section, Ive learned a lot on the site and there are quite a few guys building that ch***is. check out the circle track suppliers they run these ch***is all the time. I was a Tool and Die Supervisor at GM for the last 7 years, just recently changed companies. Some of the die makers I worked with were the most talented fabricators/machinists I have ever seen. The guys that came from outside shops were the best. Theres definately a level of "black magic skill" that comes into play on some of those draw dies and luckily they shared some of it. Im not stamping sheet metal anymore but know the business pretty well, it is tough for an independent shop these days and the big 3 is just breaking it off in them.
Couple thoughts on your project based on my involvement with G bodies (78 regal) Brakes- for a car that size, improve the front brakes' performance. They **** in a G body that weighs 1000 lbs less than your buick (which is a very cool car BTW). Master power brake co sells overbored stock calipers that bolt on. Circle track shops will stock them, ask for "ovebored metric calipers". But if you can find the PN, anywhere selling M.P. (like NAPA) can order them. Master cylinder- we like to use the heavy duty master cylinder for earlier A bodies with discs. It's all steel, and has equal size fluid reservoirs front and rear. Look it up for a 71-72 monte carlo, but I think light duty 2wd pickups also used the same part. Use an adjustable proportioning valve if the balance ends up funky. Now the bad news. Your ch***is' puny 7.5 rear axle will die quickly behind 455 torque and a 4500lb car, especially if there's burnouts in this car's future. Bolt in options include a 8.5 rearend out of a grand national ($600ish) or a 68-72 chevelle rearend using a set of custom trailing arms ($300, 2 different MFGs making them). But early chevelle 12 bolts are getting pricey, and their 8.2 10 bolt is not that fabulous. There are good cheap options (73-77 midsize), but you've got to be able to transfer the brackets Good Luck!
Thanks a lot for the advice, I had already fully expected the rearend to not make it long. The only good news is that the 455 is a stock 73 and only makes 225 horsepower but there is still that pesky 360 ft lbs of torque ... Now I just have to find a grand national getting parted out . I don't expect to beating on the car too much, but I lack good judgement a lot of the time.
This is great info, thanks for taking the time! So my best bet would be to find the whole setup at a junkyard I guess? The whole setup would have to work in both the interior (as far as placement goes) sit level on the firewall and have the right bore. I have a "real" auto parts place by my house and no them pretty well due to the appe***e my 93 f150 has for parts. They should be able to tell me the bore size for a 78 regal and then some other common junkyard cars that I can cannibalize. Maybe an ***embly out of another g body would work
Hey, take the advice with stride and enjoy working with you dad, I wish I could build a car or truck with mine but he just does'nt seem interested. P.S. I do have a great father-in-law that helps out a whole lot. thanks Larry
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