Stovebolt TECH: 58-62 side mount adapted to 53 frame towers

This MUST have been done, but hell if I can find any REAL information on it. I've spent hours looking here, stovebolt.com, inliners.org, etc.

I want to make mounts that bolt to the 58-62 (late) motor and ride on the stock 1953 frame towers. This should be very possible.

the question is (and this is what I mean by REAL information):

will it work if I
1. make a plate with the late (upright equilateral) triangle pattern
2. lop the early (inverted scalene) triangle pattern off the original mount
3. **** weld the new (late) triangle plate plate to the "top hat" of the old mount, and
4. gusset things so they don't break.



My understanding is that the high side mount bolts to the block on an inverted scalene triangle pattern like the one below:
(ignore text, see 3 holes, extreme left)



And I want to bolt the upright equilateral triangle type mount (shown below, centre) to the stock 53 mount tower:


So the question is (and this is the REAL information I'm looking for) is whether or not the 52-54 sidemounts are in the same spatial location on the block as the 58-62.


If they are, then it should be cake to fab a plate with the late upright triangle bolt pattern and weld the "top-hat" half of the old mount to it.

Of course, even if they line up front to back I'm still not out of the woods.

If they are higher up on the block, the engine sits lower between the rails and the oilpan hits the center steering link. Lower down on the block and the engine sits up too high.

I guess the right way to do it is lift the engine into the frame, connect everything up to the driveline, bolt down the ******, put the engine where it needs to be and then see whether the mounts need to be lengthened, shortened, or offset front to back...

But I kind of ****. I'm not really up for a bunch of trial and error.

Somebody MUST have done this already! In fact lots of people must have done this LOTS of times. There must be some knowledge out there. I'm actually surprised there isn't a downloadable pdf template that you can print out and transfer to steel...

In fact, when I find a way to make this work there will be!

 

I believe Tom Langdon (Stovebolt Engine Co.) has a way of doing this, but you have to send him the original motor mounts and he sends back the modified ones. Of course, I might have dreamed this up too... hard to tell sometimes.

That being said, I too would like to see what other people have done to solve this problem. Eventually, the original 235 in my '52 is going to be replaced by a bit more modern 235/261(actual pressurized oiling!)

newstranger

 

It can't be that hard. They sure LOOK like they're in the right position top to bottom. Notice how the top bosses are just over (and the bottom ones just under) the ribs by the oil journals? Gotta be close!

 

I will pm you with instructions of how I install the late 230-250 "6" in a 51-54 ch***is. It should work very similar if not the same.

 

Seems to me most people mount it like a 49-51 under the timing cover, and add some mounts for lateral stability at the bellhousing, again like a 49-51.

From the back of the block to the center of the top bolt (on the 58-62 blocks) is approx. 17 1/8". Its aprox. at the same vertical position as your original engine. Does that help any?
If you want to do it yourself, you will need to put it all together like you allready said. Otherwise, check with Buffalo or Langdon...

 

I've got a '56 261 in my '54. The '54 had the mid mounts, and the 261 has the front corner mounts. I ended up making a pair of mounts from 3/8" CRS, and using hockey pucks as cushions. It works great.

 

That'd be great Paul. Thanks, I look forward to reading them!

That's true. Lots of people do seem to do it that way. However, my plan is to use my stock 1953 bell housing, clutch and ******. It doesn't (to my knowledge) have provisions for the 'lateral support' -- nor does my frame have a crossmember near the bellhousing. I was thinking that it would be more effective (read: easier, simpler) to just run from the stock side mount position and leave the rest alone. Nevertheless, I'd be interested to see what the bellhousing supports ride on in 49-51 cars and how this can be made to work for 52-54.

Yes. It tells me we're in the ballpark at least. I need to get the measurement from the back of the block to the centre of the top bolt on my stock 53 235...but its still mounted in the car which is making things difficult...

Now that is an interesting way of doing it. I like this -- it's easy, it gives some torsional support AND it leaves room for dual exhaust. This is a pretty good plan. Did you happen to make drawings?



1. What's the angle at "a"?

2. I ***ume that 'c' is a bolt that goes right through the rail and there's be a bolt head you could get on at 'b'. Sound about right?

Do you have support at the bell housing or did you use the stock 54 ******? (which for those who are interested, doesn't have lateral supports and should look something like the stock 53 in the link above). If you do have bell housing mounts, what are they resting on? It seems to me like I'd have to mount my brakes on the firewall to have enough room for bellhousing mounts...


Since we're talking about these bell housing mounts, I should post a pic. The late bell that came on my '59 261 (which is the engine I'm putting in the car) DOES have lateral support at the bell. This is what that looks like. However, as you can also see in the picture, the bolt pattern is wrong for my (small pattern) 53 ******. To use it would mean I'd have to find a closed drive ****** that would fit or change to open drive, which I'm not prepared to do. (yes, I will be saving this piece for a possible future t5 swap).

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Feel free to follow up on these thoughts. There's a few interesting tangents here, so keep 'em coming. Me and 6inarow (who pm'd me and who I don't know from a hole in the ground) are both tackling this question.

But just to round the whole thing up again, the question is:

how do we make stock 52-54 side mount towers work with the later side mounted 235/261s?

 

man i dunno about any of this for sure but im getting ready to find out in a couple of days because im in process of putting a 59 truck 235 in my 53 car. so looks like we are in same boat

i also had the same idea you mentioned in intial post on what to do about the differences in the mounts and it never ocurred to me that they may be further forward or further back on the block

well ill figure something out and when i do ill let you know
im going to finish ****oning up the last couple of things i need to do to the motor saturday morning and should have it suspended in car on engine hoist by saturday evening

my dads gonna make a guest appearence on this build monday morning simply because he is twice the welder/fabricator i am but ill keep ya posted and let you know end results

 

Here is another option - even though I caught hell in another thread about it. if we swap bellhousings to the one with a wider ****** bolt mount pattern 55 and up p***. or 48-54 pickup) we can use a 4 speed saginaw adaptation kit from Patricks and keep our torque tubes. Biggest problem is the clutch fork angle will be different. Unless someone knows if a particular bellhousing will solve both problems: the wide bolt trans and the clutch fork angle

 

Definitely keep us posted here!

Hey 6, I'm not quite sure what that saginaw adapter kit includes/does. Got a pic? Where do we mount the bell-housing pads? Does the 55+ p***enger/48-54 truck bell look something like this?



I've got a ****** that came attached to this bell on my 261. It has the mason jar lid looking tailshaft that I ***ociate with closed drive, yet it fits this wide bolt pattern. I ***ume its a 3 speed, but I don't know. Have to try again running the casting #s I guess.


Hoping wrenchbender will tell us more about his setup.

 

I'll get a photo of my saginaw trans conversion tonight when I get home. Then you can see how it looks. If memory serves me correct, it will mount just like the p***. trans. So I believe this could be used with the orig trans mounts - only have to drill/redrill 2 mount holes for the trans. Then we dotn have to worry about the bellhousing mounts because it will be just like the factory tripod mouonting configuration in the photos you posted on inliners. I'll get the photos and we can check it over. Maybe wrenchbender and Gotti can tell us more about their set up too.

I'll bet the trans you took off this bellhousing is a 4 speed with granny

 

here is link with some stock drawings,,,

http://chevy.tocmp.com/chevyresto/5431.htm

http://chevy.tocmp.com/chevyresto/5440.htm

http://chevy.tocmp.com/chevyresto/5429.htm

http://chevy.tocmp.com/chevyresto/54index.htm

 

this was posted on

www.inliners.org

Late Sixes for '52-54 Chevys

To install a late 235-261 in a '52-54 Chevrolet p***enger car, there are two methods to consider. The first is to locate the holes for the late front motor mount in the IFS crossmember (still called knee action by Chevrolet until 1954 ). The holes have to be drilled in the correct places. On the 1952 models, there are flat stops in the right place, but on the 53-54 models there are no indications of where they should be, so you will have to get the measurements from a 49-51 and copy them. Then install a 37-51 p***enger car front plate on the late 235-261 engine.

The second way to accomplish this swap is to buy custom mounts from Stovebolt Engine Company The kits come with frame and engine mounts and are a bolt on. The stock '52-54 motor mount towers are riveted to the frame and have to be cut off, as they will obstruct our frame brackets. Once engine mounts are attached lower engine into position, bolt down the transmission rear mount. Then locate the frame brackets. Drill frame holes at this time and bolt in place. The Stovebolt Engine Company motor mount kit is also of value when installing a Stovebolt automatic transmission adapter behind a 235-261 because it shortens the spread to the tail shaft of the transmission.

 

right, but what this doesn't tell you is that you need lateral support at the bell housing, which the 52-54 cars don't have provisions for.

Your drawing shows how 52-54 mounts at three points - 2 on the motor and one at the ****** (see top right):
http://chevy.tocmp.com/chevyresto/5431.htm

I suspect that a single, centre front plate mount and a single rear ****** mount would be inadequate -- the engine would torque around like crazy (and probably tear the mounts before long). I'd love to be wrong about this, because the setup would be capital 'E' easy.

The second method uses 2 sidemounts at the engine and one at the ******. It's OK, but, like they say

We're trying to use these stock mount towers. And it should be possible. In theory, it's probably better to have high side mounts than it is to have low ones that go straight to the frame because the engine will be less able to couple its weight and torque into twisting force on the mounts. In practice with a straight 6 it probably wouldn't matter much either way. We're just trying to use what we already have...

here's a link to the mount kit that Tricknology is talking about. You'll note that this is actually for a 250 (left) and that the extendo-mount on the right is for a 292...

 

That's true. Lots of people do seem to do it that way. However, my plan is to use my stock 1953 bell housing, clutch and ******. It doesn't (to my knowledge) have provisions for the 'lateral support' -- nor does my frame have a crossmember near the bellhousing. I was thinking that it would be more effective (read: easier, simpler) to just run from the stock side mount position and leave the rest alone. Nevertheless, I'd be interested to see what the bellhousing supports ride on in 49-51 cars and how this can be made to work for 52-54.


Are there any tapped holes at the front corners of the bellhousing?
Were not talking about load carrying here, thats what the ****** and front mounts are for.

 

I went through all of this before...

There is NO bellhousing available with the wide ****** pattern and downward angled clutch fork...

 

Switching the front motor plate for the sake of two holes is the hard way to do it. Switching that plate requires tearing down half of each motor, not to mention the cost of a gasket set. Make a template from a piece of paper, and transfer them to the new engine. It will take all of a half hour to do...

 

That is a 48-53 truck bellhousing. The fork sticks straight out which will be a problem for a 49-54 car. If you were to cut the slot down lower (which ruins the mount on that side) AND relocate the pivot ball, THEN it could be used in a 49-54 car.

 

Good question. I don't know.

The fork on a pssgr car angles so it doesn't bind with the tunnel/e-brake/brake stuff, right?
Would it be possible to slot a straight-out bell housing and use the angled fork?

Again, this is part of the reason why my plan is to use the stock 53 everything from the bellhousing back.

I ***ume you mean to drill the plate that is currently on the engine.
For those of us with 53-54 cars we'd have nothing to make the template from. Luckily there's this.

 

Gotcha. But then like you say I wouldn't have my bellhousing mounts (so I might as well sidemount the damn thing...)

 

Those mounts that wrenchbender54 made are probably the best way to go. It gives you the lateral support you need, plus it gives you more exhaust pipe clearance for duals. And you don't need to mess with anything behind the engine. Unless...

Are you planing on going with an open driveline or different ****** at all??

 

I'd love to go with a t5 and numerically lower gears at some point. Thing is, that point is an as-yet-to-be-determined point in the future. I've got my eye out for collecting the parts but my plan is to run stock driveline for the first little while (read probably a couple of years).

I'm not entirely sure what 6inarow has in mind for his.

 

Anybody have the mounts newstranger describes? How about a pic?

 

As for being able to make the drilling template, if you were going to do the plate swap idea, and you had the parts there, then you would have what you need to make the template.

FYI, Do not be tempted to try to bend a clutch fork, or you will become very good at putting in new throwout bearings...

 

If you're going to go with the open driveline in the future (and you have lateral support allready at the engine), then I would suggest going with a ****** adapter plate from Buffalo Enterprises. It will alow you to use a wide pattern ****** with your stock bellhousing. No clutch issues that way either. You will also need to cut out the center section of the crossmember under the ****** (and make it a bolt-in deal). An S10 T5 is definitely the way to go. Pre '87 have a mechanical speedo.

 

My 261 has about half of a truck plate mount (is there actually a difference?)

Good to know. Hadn't thought of that little snafu yet. Thanks!
So some sort of side mounting is probably in order. Hoping wrenchbender will tell us more.

 

Well, this thread is getting good.

But we're still not there yet.

Focusing on the initial question, let's take stock:

Goal is to bolt the late 58-62 235 sidemount to the stock 52-54 frame towers.

Newstranger says its possible. Langdon does it. Can anybody second that? How about a pic?

peteweldit says it should be the same or close to the 230 mounts. Anybody concur?

Snarl pulled out the ol' measuring tape and informed us that "From the back of the block to the center of the top bolt (on the 58-62 blocks) is approx. 17 1/8". Its aprox. at the same vertical position as your original engine."

Approximately is good enough for Jazz.

Now we need to know the measurement from the back of the block to the center of the top bolt on a 52-54 block.

(and this brings up more questions -- are these gonna be the same across the years? Probably. Should we be measuring to the furthest bolt on both patterns (as opposed to the top one)? Maybe. My original engine is still in the car (and the mounts are still attached [read:in the way of accurate measuring]), but I can probably come up with something. My 59 261 is pulled and easily measurable. If no one beats me to it I'll grab these measurements when I get home.

What else do we know?

(...re-reading...)

Well, that's about all we know so far, but there has been some interesting discussion.

Lets figure this thing out.

 

Man, I feel kinda worthless sitting here waiting for this question to be answered... but I really would LOVE to see how this pans out! I guess I could call Tom Langdon and ask him to email some pics, but he's pretty old school(have you been on his website!) and that email could take days, if not weeks... not to mention it seems like a total shot in the dark.

For anyone reading this who wants to do this swap but has yet to get their hands on a motor the '54 235(from a p***enger car) SHOULD be a bolt in(so I'm told). I've also been told that the '53 235 if mated to a Powerglide ****** originally has the sought after pressurized oiling system.

Purely FYI

newstranger

 

Then what do I have in my 53? It is supposed to be a 58 or so car bellhousing. I'm using the stock 53 fork and a t5. the t5 lower support arms fit the unused crossmember mount holes PERFECTLY. Save for opening the holes up to 1/2" on the trans ears, it was a bolt in.

I have a 54 235 in mine, I bought a 62 truck 235/trans cause it looked close. Then I discovered it is slightly off, but I already had the 54 motor in. ended up using the starter, flywheel and pressure plate and giving the rest to a buddy.