Continental "Red Seal" 6-cylinder

Okay, kind of a weird bunch of questions. Ordinarily I wouldn't consider this much of a hot rod motor, but it's a nostalgia thing because they were made in my hometown (Whitehall is about 10 minutes north of Muskegon). Can anybody tell me if the Red Seal motors they were using in the twenties were different from the Continental inline sixers they used in the Kaiser and Frazer? Beyond that, how different are the industrial engines? Does anybody know if cylinder heads, intakes, camshafts and the like will interchange between the passenger car and industrial eninges?

I only ask because it's more than likely I'll be able to find a Red Seal industrial engine somewhere, but it would be cool to find the "experimental" Edmunds head that was available for the Kaiser Darrin or the 2 carb intake that they produced for the taxicabs and be able to bolt it up without having to hold out for a take-out from a K-F.

I appreciate any help, there is minimal history on Continental Motors available online and nearly zero technical history of the engines themselves. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Red Seal name was used on a lot of engines and that the Durant, Star, et al engines probably don't interchange with the 1940s and '50s industrial motors, and that the K-F engine may be a different beast entirely, but there just isn't enough info out there to know anything for sure.

Thanks,
Dave

 

They built a couple gazillion different enginemodels at the downtown plant. When that closed up almost 20 years ago the engineering records, among other things, were donated to the county museum.

Continental made reliable, but unimaginative engines. At one time they were the largest engine supplier in the world.

Charlie

 

Hmm, you know, I don't get down there nearly as often as I'd like. I can't wait to move back home. Thanks for the heads up.

-Dave

 

As you probably know, industrial and tractor places are where to look. Things like aircraft tugs, generator sets, combines, forklifts, you name it and Continental probably has an engine in one somewhere.

Maybe try emailing the company with questions... sometimes emails get lost in buracracy, sometimes they get through. You feeling lucky?

Narrow it down to a year range, and I'll look around for ya.

Didn't alot of military stuff have them too, like 6X6's and such? If so, TM's cover alot of stuff.

Jay

 

Unfortunately the old Continental Motors division that did the industrial engines has been gone for 20 years - no buildings, no nothing. There were a few of us that were able to influence the decision to donate what they did. The plant that is left in Muskegon now is part of L3 Corp and still builds the air cooled 1790 cubic inch V-12 for tanks among other things. A version of that engine from the first gasoline engines of the 40's has been in continuous production for 60+ years. I worked there 3 different times fro 1975 untill I retired 2004.

Like a lot of companies, such as Sealed Power and Muskegon Piston Ring that were at the top of the heap, the corporate knowledge pool has pretty much slipped away. It's a shame, but profit became more important than the product and the guys who made things have become replaced by the guys who make money...

 

When I was in the Army (1961-2-3) I drove a 5 ton wrecker. It had a 606 cubic inch stright 6 that I understood was built by Continental. I remember the tank motors also. I think they are all Deisel now. A guy showed up at Bonneville with one of the 1790 inch V12s in a lakester two years in a row but never was allowed to run it.

 

Six Gunner, I appreciate the offer. I don't think I'll have much luck going to the company, as they've been absorbed by Teledyne. Their Muskegon operation is just tank stuff now and their website just talks about their light plane engines. There seems to be tons of parts out there for them. The year range for the various stationary engines seems to be 1920s-early 1980s. They were suppliers to Durant's second company (Durant, Star, DeVaux, Locomobile, Princeton, Rugby, etc.), to Graham, to Willys, to Kaiser-Fraser, and to Checker. They seem to have been the engine supplier of choice to the smaller independents and "assemblers." The car engines were made in the Detroit plant and the industrial engines in Muskegon. The displacement of the K-F engine ("Supersonic Six") was 226 cubic inches and they produced a Red Seal called the F226, so I'm thinking there's probably some interchange. Of course, information on the Kaiser Edmunds head and the two-carb manifold is even scarcer than info on the engine itself, so in all likelihood it doesn't matter what engine I end up with, I'll have to improvise everything. That doesn't bother me, though. Those are skills I've wanted to learn anyway.

Charlie, I didn't know you'd worked for Continental. I guess I thought you'd worked for Sealed Power/Dana. I knew the downtown plants had been destroyed, there's a pretty good article online from the museum. Is the current facility what was called "The Hill?" This stuff fascinates me - this engine is as much about local history as it is cars (two out of my three passions, how can you beat that?).

Rich, those engines sound a bit big for me. They'd probably twist my little Model T frame into a pretzel - assuming I could get one mounted!

-Dave

 

Not for sure how many years, but some, if not all industrial Continentals had gear driven camshafts; the auto engines had timing chains. I know this from a friend who was changing over to the cam gears in a Continental in his Cletrac crawler. You must use the correct cam with the gears or with the chain, or your cam will run backwards. You could ask him how he knows!

 

Check out the military surplus places, such as Sam Winer motors.

 

usually the cams in industrial motors have low rpm camshafts (long duration?) for low end torque.

 

Dave, yes the Getty street plant was called "the hill".

Teledyne Continental Motors had an interesting history of the company published back in the 80's. I have a copy somewhere. I'll see if I can find it and you can borrow it sometime.

Charlie

 

I looked thru the stuff I have here, and it's mostly later (mid to late 60's) stuff, like the OHC "Tornado" engine.

I'll keep digging and let you know, but I bet if you went to a site like yesterdays tractors or an old tractor site you'd be able to find what you're looking for.

And, when I did my stint as a turbine tech, some of the F107-400's we'd get were built by Teledyne... I always thought they made that damn Waterpik thing.

Jay

 

Hmm, I have a 2.56:1 rear out of a LeMans, sounds like they'd work perfect together!

Thanks for the help guys. Charlie, I'd be interested to read that history, should you come across it.

-Dave

 

I have an Operation and Maintenance manual. Sixes ran from 186 CID to 427 CID.

 

Does it look like this?



-Dave

 

Mine's a little more tattered.

 

Do you think the book would give me a good overview of the sixes? They're available pretty readily on eBay and I've given some thought to picking one up.

-Dave

 

PM me a name and address and I'll send a copy.

 

I worked on forklifts and airplane tuggers in the 65-71 era in the air force. The tuggers used mostly Chrysler 6's and the forklifts used the Contental engines. If there is such a thing as a forklift junkyard that would be a good place to look for engines in early American made ones. Almost all the newer ones are Japanese. My dad was a Kaiser/ Frazier mechanic in the 50's and they used the Contental engines too

 

There is. I bought an LPG conversion from a forklift junkyard by me with a ~400 lifts. Most are good but have bad masts from driving through doors in the up position.

 

I own a '63 Checker Marathon that I'm mildly rodding (see my post about too thick door panels and installing handles). It has a Continental OHV 226 in it. That was the last year they used it. I have a 1960 Speed Mechanics magazine that talks about hopping up the very same motor! Super torquey but no top end. I've done an extensive internet search for info. on the engines but have come up with very little. Calling up companies that deal with the industrial engines mostly gets a polite "can't help you."

I've spent several months just trying to find a fuel pump for the 226. I installed an electric pump (kept the mech. pump installed for wiper vaccum) and just found a rebuilt two weeks ago. Parts are getting super rare for the OHV motor, I can't imagine the difficulty for the flatheads. Jeep also used the motors until the mid-sixties.

My engine is tired, and I'll have to make a decision about it. I'm going to narrow it to a Chevy 350 or a Chevy 250 in-line six. Putting in a tricked-out six sorta intrigues me. I'll have to find a bellhousing adapter to mate either one to the Borg-Warner T90 3 speed manual with overdrive.

I go to a tractor enthusiast site, Yesterday's Tractors, which discusses the motors on a fairly regular basis.

If I'm not mistaken, Kaiser-Frazer licensed the design to Checker, and Checker upgraded them for taxi duty. They are one tough son of a bitch. I'm running about 9-12 psi oil pressure at idle, and everyone familiar with these engines says, "No problem." Forty-weight and Lucas is the recipe to keep it turning.

 

Thanks TR. You know, I once lived in your Checker's hometown only a few miles from the old factory in North Kalamazoo.

-Dave

PS In doing my research, it looks as if it might actually be easier to get flathead parts because those engines were made through the '80s whereas the overheads seem to have died out earlier.

 

Man, I want to go to K'zoo really bad! The Checker Car Club of America meets there for their annual get together. I just can't see it for the next few years. They are meeting next month at the Ypsilanti Orphan Car Show for this year. The show this year is dedicated to Checker! I am really, really envious of my Checker friends who are going.

Yeah, I figure there were way more flatheads than OHV's. Checker had a bad habit of shopping for the low bid, so they changed engines faster than I take showers in the summer. They actually had a Chrysler 318 for just one year and wound up going to court over it! I hate to take out an original motor in the '63, but rebuilding it doesn't seem to be an option right now. On the other hand, a few club members are sporting LS1 motors tugging at 700r4 trannies, and that makes me smile too! My '70 Checker has a two-barrel Chevy 350 (stock for that year), HEI ignition (not stock) and Positraction, and it can leave several feet of twin rubber without a problem. I'm thinking of headers, manifold, and carb changes in the future. Some guy with more money than sense built an NYC-taxi-looking Checker with a blown 426 Hemi sticking out of the hood!

I've tried to win those manuals several times on eBay but I always get nailed. I'm willing to pay a decent price for an OHV manual if you have one or know someone who does.

If I find any decent info., I'll post it here. My own club knows next to nothing about the motors. Checkers in the years below '64 (first year of the Chevy six-banger) are exceedingly rare now. Most members own '70's or newer Checkers.

 

Hello, I have two (2) Star Continental engines that need a good home, both are complete with bell houses, but no carbs or starters...let me know...I had them stored at My daughters house ( Austin Texas) which she sold...BUT the engines are heavy and I belive they are still in the shed.....let me know...Dan

 

If I could afford to get to Texas to pick them up, I'd be on them in a heartbeat! Unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the gas money right now.

-Dave

 

I know what you mean. To bad we are too far apart. I will be going to Eagle River Wisconsin in June and July, But I will not have the room....My father brought these motors down from Racine years ago...if I find someone going your way I send them up.... or parts....Dan

 

Hey 31DAN, what were those motors running in? I'd love to get them too, but Georgia to Texas in a 265,000 mile van with no A/C, a cranky wife and a six year old would be my personal hell. I think I read that the motors run in the over 700 lb category. Mine looks like it was chiseled out of a block of iron. If I couldn't blow a head gasket or crack the block in my 250-six Nova from running with no water for 20 miles, then these motors gotta be even tougher! Taxi, tank and forklift tough!

 

Absolutely, Continentals are....





-Dave

 

Eighteen years since the last post! Did a Google search on this Magneto gizmo and this link popped up.

 

funny coincidence w/ that other fellow looking for a new coil!