Hello all, New here............ I've been doing the streerodding thing most of my life, and at 50, I still have that occasional question that's probably been asked and answered a million times.......but, here goes.... After retiring as a Deputy Sheriff in WNY, I decided to delve deep into a 1939 Dodge D11 Business Coupe as a streetrod project. My brother did the car over many years before, and did okay with what he had, but kind of took short cuts on several things. He eventually got bored with the car and handed it over to me. (He also handed over a 41' Chevy P/U to my other brother which I just did flames on......generous boy) When I decided to dig into it, the frame was pretty much trashed, and wouldn't have held the horsepower the smallblock would've dealt anyway. The old frame twisted so bad when the coals were put to it, that it apparently cracked the pass. side windshield. Anyway, I did my homework and replaced the original frame with a 1991 S10 reg. cab/long bed chassis, which appears to be a common swap nowadays. The problem is, with the fenders and radiator supports in place on the S10 frame, the stock steering box sticks out past where the fender is, and is totally unuseable with the radiator support. So my only real option is to go to a rack & pinion. After weeks of homework on the front end alone, and speaking with Dave Batke at Unisteer, I decided that I'm going to continue surfing the junkyard (2 friends own one) to see if I can locate one. Unisteer's price is good ($700), but before I go that route, I can use the facilities at a local high tech machining facility nearby, and something close to what I need could easily be modified. I just went over budget on the engine and drivetrain, and I'm thinking that I can recover on the frontend (hopefully). The R&P that I need is no more than 31" end to end, a center take off unit, and it has to be front steer. I've tried the Intrepid rack and it was too long overall. Right now I grabbed a 1995 Mustang rack which is an end take off unit. I figured that I'd be able to bracket the ends, turning it into a center steer unit, but with the links I'd have to make to convert it, it would extend past the frame rails and impede the sway bar's normal movement (the reason for the overall 31" length). I also considered a Cavalier rack, and modifying/machining it to work as a front steer unit. I don't know the overall length, but after checking the internal components, it might work. As a newbie, I figured I'd ask. No matter how old you get, there's always a question, and your always learning something new. Makes it fun I guess.................. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bob
First off, if you need a front steer rack, you can't use a rear steer rack as the steering wheel will work backwards from what we've become accustomed to after just a few minutes of learning to drive. Regarding a front steer rack, as you've requested; the overall length is only one consideration, and the lesser important one. The most important is to identify a rack that has the proper distance between the tie rod pivot points, otherwise you WILL have bump steer. The measurement of these pivot points goes something like this: draw a line from the pivot point of the upper control arm to the pivot point of the lower control arm on each side. The rack must be mounted so the pivots fall ON that line. I think Heidt's catalog has an article with drawings that describe this also. I'd start by looking in the Sport Truck magazines to see if anyone sells a rack and installation kit for the S-10. Get a good look at the rack and the installation kit, take some measurements and then continue your search. Good luck, and remember that $700 with home brewed engineering goes pretty fast.
pprather, First off, thanks for the reply. Yes, I realize that you can't use a rear steer for a front steer application, but what I mentioned before was to disassemble the rear steer and rebuild it as a front steer rack. This can be done relatively easy with the right equipment. I've done several rack conversions on "as is" vehicles, but nothing regarding the S10 chassis when the frame is occupied by the radiator, or other items, where the Unisteer kit (new) won't work. For the price ($1050 approx.), I probably wouldn't buy one anyway. As I mentioned, the overall length of the rack, in my application, is very important since the front sway bar operates just outside the edges of the front frame section. Nothing can protrude past the front frame rails or it will impede it's travel. As far as the inner tie rod positions being important regarding bumpsteer, yes definitely, but I failed to mention that with a center take off rack, I'd be making a front inner tie rod plate that rolls on bearings, which will have the stock inner tie rod positions. The bearings allow the plate to roll very easily and not bind, putting undue pressure on the center take off link itself. Besides an inner mounting point that is too far in (longer link arms) like a center take off provides, is much less forgiving than an end take off where the tie rods are too short (inner link points too far out). You'll have bumpsteer in each situation, but much less with the longer arms that a center take off uses, than with an end take off whose inner links don't fall on that plane you mentioned. In other words, you have more bumpsteer affect it seems, when your inner link point goes out past that upper/lower control arm pivot point (towards the wheel), than it does if you move the links inward (longer). The rack's center take off will only have to make the linear movement with no end tip pressure due to the bearings. Your correct about the upper and lower control arm pivot points, and yes, I've read where you can place the inner links anywhere along these lines, but it's also in relation to the height of your outer link points at the wheel. If you think about it, placing your inner tie rod links at say the mid-point between the upper and lower control arm pivot points, when your outer tie rod link point is low, it will also create a bump steer situation, or push the wheel outward when the suspension rises. Not being a "know it all" when it comes to the steering geometry, I try several things to see how the linkages and suspension will run together. I usually pick the middle ground when I can. Using a piece of cardboard and a pencil taped to the outer links center point, I'll run the outer link & pencil up and down on the cardboard positioned flat between the upper and lower control arms and the wheel. I try and position the inner tie rod point so that the lower end of the outer link line (starting point) is at the same point of the arc when the suspension is in it's normal "loaded" position (at rest), as it would be at it's upper most top position (suspension fully compressed). Most of the time it's at or near the inner hinge point of the lower control arm. But, like I said before, it has a lot to do with the outer link arm's position, which is why I try the paper & pencil thing. I also agree that $700 can go pretty quickly when doing the home DIY stuff, not to mention the amount of sweat & frustration you have to deal with. I figured I'd separate a boneyard Cavalier rack and see what machining needed to be done. These are freebie's for me, so no dollar's spent there. If and when I get the math figured out on one, I can pick a re-manned rack for anywhere from $75-$150 and perform the same surgery. My initial question was mainly targeted at anyone who knew of a front steer rack that met those parameters (front steer, center take off & no more than 31" long end to end) before I got involved tearing part the Cavalier rack. If need be, and I have to use the Cavalier rack, I'll make a detailed account of my efforts, and some photos to boot. I told Dave at Unisteer that with the amount of S10 chassis used in streetrod fabrications nowadays, I'm surprised that they haven't created an R&P for that purpose. About 5 or 6 yrs ago at the Syracuse Nationals, I threw this idea at him and he was going to look into building one for the S10's. Not the one they have now which is "S10 specific". Many times when you need an R&P in such a situation, it's because you can't use the stock steering box due to it's position, and the position where the fenders and radiator need to be. If it wasn't for that, you could stay with the standard box, or even use Unisteer's S10 rack kit. Sorry so long.......and again, thanks...... Bob
Man, you overthink things. Your not designing a one off here and looking for an unspecific location... CHEVY already has the inner tierods in the correct position! The inner pivots of the rack assembly just need to be the same distance apart and the same height and distance forward of the crossmember as the original system to work correctly. Just to add some additional mental confusion... Perhaps you could remove the OEM steering box and replace it with another idler arm to match the pass side. Now all geometry is retained and a box or rack can be located to activate the center link thru a draglink setup or even a bellcrank! A look under a Chevy Astro van might be of help to visualize this. They use twin idler arms in their steering systems...as did 80's full size Dodge vans. Heres some diagrams to help...
Hacker, ....yep, I have a tendency to micromanage things sometimes (or as my wife calls me "a perfectionist")........gotta be happy with the result though....even though the term "anal" is just too gross to relate to.........LOL. No, the location might not be specific, but the "one off thing".....I don't know........I've never seen one before, which was why I asked in the first place.......If it turns out like I think....it'll surely be a one off. Thank you greatly for the diagram.......... Yes, the dual idler arms of the Astro's.....now that you mentioned it, I do remember seeing them in the scrapyard before...... I felt with a rack & pinion setup, the inner tie rod plate that has the exact same geometry (inner tie rod positions-height & width) as the original centerlink , wouldn't need any idler arm stabilzation if the link plate was mounted to the crossmember and rolled back & forth on bearings. It's actually quite easy to fabricate and seems like it would work smoother and tighter than a stock linkage. Like I mentioned before, there would be no canting or binding, and no undue stress on the center take off point of the rack. You did mentioned something that I considered, and that was using the total stock linkage, minus the steering box and pitman arm, and actuating the centerlink by a rack. The thought of that 2nd idler arm was a good idea to stiffen the overall package. Problem is, I think I'll have to take out the idler arm that's already there because the radiator bracketry, has to go in there, and the fact that it has two brackets that pan out from there to support the fender's makes it quite large. It's all half the fun of building a streetrod....and if it was easy, everyone would be doing it, right ? Thanks again Bill....... Take care, Bob
I've read through all this mess. A steering rack from a Cavilere has the same demensions as an Intrepid rack, so if the Intrepid rack is too long, the cavilere rack should be also. If your willing to go through all the effort of redesigning a rack, why not see if you can shorten the Intrepid rack?
Well 50, Laughingly, sorry to stress your eyeballs........(but on the post before last, I did apologize though) I tried the Intrepid rack and yes it was too long end to end. I hadn't had a tape measure on a Cavalier rack, so I didn't know it's length. Several here have, I'm sure, so I figured I'd not only ask about a possible candidate rack, but also consider options with the Cavalier rack. I couldn't shorten the Intrepid rack enough to make a difference, and it impeded the use of the rack anyway. Making a manual rack from current "scavenged" components can be done fairly easily, and eventually, this might be the only option. What I'd like to do is have a power rack, if possible. It looks do-able.............. http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/center-steer-rnp.html The fella in this link didn't alter the pinion from rear steer, to front steer, but he did alter the position of the center take off....impressive. Bob
Years ago, as in 20+, we looked into using a Jag sedan rack and pinion. If your car weighs enough, this (general) direction may offer some options. Good luck.
when you do figure your steering out please do a tech article with lots of pic's. what is this "turn a front steer into a rear steer rack"? do a tech on that with tons of pic's that one still has me scratching my head. sounds cool to me. i have been working on putting r&p on my aspen clipped 55' chevy truck. anyone done this or have any suggestions.
pitman, Thanks, I hadn't checked into the Jag racks yet, and I'm currently looking into the Beemer 300 series racks. From the limited views I've seen of them so far, they look to be front steer and very short. From the slant of the pinion tower, and the short size, they might be a very good option. As far as chopping up a Cavalier rack, that's a last option, but theoretically, the pinion can be dissected from the rack and reversed (from over to under the rack) to accomplish the change. You commonly get the "glim view" when you mention the modification, but I guess it's do-able. I have the use of facilities to do the work, if I have to use them, so I'm not too worried. When I do figure out what I can use, and how to go about it, I'll surely take photo's and do a detailed report to help those who are trying to accomplish the same thing. Thanks, Bob
Might be an idea to take a few photos NOW so we can see the issues your having! I've just spent a full 1/2 hour looking over the available conversion from Unisteer and some pics of the stock S10 configuration to visualize how you could adapt off the shelf components to do this. It's tight. I'm amazed you don't even have room for the pass side stock S10 idler arm...the steering box I can understand...but even the idler? WOW! Thats what really makes me iffy on all this. My opinion...and thats all it is...would be to write off doing it yourself and just get the Unisteer...and its unusual for me to just give up where money can be saved! LoL. Your backed into a corner and you really don't want to cobble up your steering, trying some untested and fragile sounding mish mash of links and rollers etc. A radical alternative...dumb as I'm sure it sounds...have you considered a rear steer clip from a Nova to the S10? It's just welding then...the steering assembly is out of the way and proven. Just how far along are you on the body installation to the S10 frame anyway? Are you committed, with no chance to use an alternate chassis?
Bill, Well, I only look at this as a little hurdle to clear because the frame fits perfectly every other way. At my age I never cobble......maybe as a kid, but after adulthood and learning over the years, I found that jerry rigging and cobbling costs you way more money, or gets you killed or severely injured......LOL. My younger brother always says thats the difference between a fabricator & an assembler, they figure out how to use the unuseable...and it sounds like you've been there & done that..... We started out poorer than dirt when we were kids, and both my brothers and I learned to "polish a turd" from the very early years. I just helped that same brother finish up his 41' Chevy Pickup, airbrushing a set of flames out on the front clip before clearing it. Were constantly building cars for friends & friends of friends, etc. Being retired, we keep busy doing what we like. Rambling on.......Back to the rack.... Where the idler arm is, just behind it is where the bracket for the radiator has to go. Now if I showed you a photo of this thing, you'd fall over. A big "U" shaped channel about 2-3 ft. in height, with large "gull wing" arms that reach out to connect the fenders to. It's fairly large. I could probably leave the idler there, but I'm speculating without the radiator bracket in place. I mocked it up about a year back and I think the idler might be fine if I had to use it, but were talking inches. Now, towards the crossmember, lots of room. I can't use the Unisteer S10 kit specifically......Dave has to make me a custom rack using the same one as in the kit, only with the center take off rotated 180 degrees to face front. That's if I decide to go that route. Just the rack alone is quite pricey. Dave said he'd give me dealer on it and it's still $650. I've known him for several years, and see him at the shows a lot. Nice guy, always has been.... Anyway, as an update.....today I got doing some homework, and I think I found a Beemer rack that will fit. It's for a 92-98 318i (3 series). I emailed Dave and he'll probably be getting back to me tomorrow regarding a Maval remanned BMW rack. The rack is shorter than anything I've seen yet, and it's a front steer from the photo's I've looked at. The ends of the rack are exposed and visually, it looks like it can be used either as an end take off (as originally intended), or work well with a center take off plate fabricated. Here's a photo of the rack on Griffith's FAQ page.....(man don't email them for questions on their racks...they're dinks, very rude) Their remanned price is $299. http://www.griffiths.com/bmw/steering/racks/index.html As soon as I can find a spot to stash my photo's on the internet, I'll post them here. Thanks amigo........ Bob
Without going outside and looking under my S10 Blazer, I'm wondering if there is a way to move the box back for clearance? It might require notching and bracing the cross member, but could this idea be doable? I'm wondering too if there's a way to do like some of these guys have mentioned and add a second idler arm so that the steering geometry is retained, but also fab a sort of cross steering setup to manipulate the back and forth action? What about using something like a corvair type box for size savings? And, I also wonder if there's an alternative to swapping the front clip for a rear steer unit? Are the ball joints between the Camaro/Nova type clips the same or very similar to that of an S10? If so, perhaps swap the spindles and steering assemblies to move everything to the backside to clear? If nothing else, this'd be something to check out for a TECH type article here, and be valuable information to pass onto us all. I think if you've got access to a salvage yard, I'd run out and snatch the spindles off the Camaro/Nova clip and mic the ball joints and compare that to those of a similar S10. If they are the same or VERY close, I'd take a C/N spindle and hang it on the S10 and see what it looks and feels like. I also wonder if you could swap out the upper and lower control arms from the C/N onto that of the S10 should the ball joints be different? With freebie access to a salvage yard, there are TONS of measurements and test fittings I'd do and try before I spent $700 on anything. Just my thoughts....
Bob...sounds like your on top of things...you just might get something to work. The BMW rack sounds promising!!! Greg...not sure if the rear steer spindles will work on a front steer clip (they might!) but it APPEARS that the lower arms are configured to clear the tierods depending on where they are located. Rear steer control arms project to the front and front steer control arms project to the rear. Will it clear? Your guess is as good as mine! A thought I had, that might help a little... Toyota FJ 40 Landcruisers used a rear mounted box operating a drag link to a bellcrank assembly that changed the push/pull to cross steer in front of the axle. Theres a little "monkey in the motion" but it all adds up to have potential... Of course, you have a coil spring and an upper control arm to play with as well, but you never know your luck. A custom built bellcrank could be used to raise or even lower the draglink as it has no effect on bumpsteer in this configuration. Thats totally controlled by the original S10 tierods. Just rolling this issue of yours around in my head...its an interesting problem. Hope you can come up with a solid fix!!! Heres a poor pic that shows anything can be made to work if you approach it correctly! Look closely... Two bellcranks to operate rear steer arms from the front! Pulled this from the HAMB a while back...
Forgive me if I overlooked something signifigant. I scanned through pretty quickly. I did a manual rack on a V8 S10 that I did a few years ago. We had been asked to do R&P conversions on several muscle cars when my parked truck was tagged in the front wheel by a DWI idiot. The cost of a new steering gear, tie rods and center link was more than we were spending on the conversions, so I went for it. I used a manual MII rack from one of the rod parts warehouses. It mounts out front of the cross-member. We used 2 methods to get around the obstruction, I just can't remember which we used on my S10. They are similar, though. The easiest, pick the line you need for the steering shaft to pass right through the cross-member and use a 1.5" hole saw to make the windows. If you miss by too much, weld the plug back in and adjust on the next try. The other was similar, but the shaft could run through a corner of the cross-member. Use a half round of exhaust tubing to recess a tunnel into the top of the cross-member when you expect to remove too much metal. This puts a bridge across the cut you made. To mount the rack, I supported it at ride height with proper angles on the tie rods. It seems I added 1.5" extensions from flaming river to make the rack ends about the same width as the lower control arm pivots. When you like the position, use roll bar tubing (1.625 was what i had handy. 1.75 is fine, too.) to make 2 stands off the front of the cross-member. They were about 2 inches long and aimed down about 45 degrees. The ends were capped with the 5/8? nut welded inside for the rack mounting bolts. I used off the shelf steering joints from some rod parts house and cut a 3/4 shaft to fit. I think I only used one joint more than it had to begin with. Add a carrier bearing with a big heim end if you need it. Wish I had pics. It might make more sense.
Goztrider, Amen............I have access to 2 large yards, and most stuff I pull is pretty much free......... I supply other streetrodders I know across the state with parts, frames, engines, axles, etc., pretty cheaply through those yards, so, as friends (owners), they give me perks. Also, the main reason.......I'm cheap & I'd rather put in the time more than the money. I have read an internet article where someone had taken an S10 and converted it to rear steer, but it was on a project where the engine was moved to the rear (like mine) in a streetrodding project. It was awhile ago, but I think they either reversed the spindles (relocating the stops), and eventually found other rear steer spindles that worked with those ball joints. I don't really know if it'd be worth it or not, unless that was your only option. Bill, I'm going to give the Beemer rack a try I think. It's the best option so far. I just have to get some spec's on it, length, rack travel, etc., etc. Visually (which don't mean that much), it looks very good.............and thank you..... Scotty, You actually got a Mustang II rack to work ? Maybe I missed something....and you can correct me here, but being so common, that was the first rack I looked at a couple of years back. The inner tie rod joints were so far off the suspension plane that bumpsteer would've been awful. Did you modify the rack somehow ? I looked at Pinto, Omni's, etc., through Maval, as well as several of the Mustang racks. None of them would work for me geometrically. I have a 1991 S10 chassis, and I know it won't work with my spacing. Right now, I've got a power rack off of a 1995 Mustang with the thought of using it as a modified center take off project, but with the machined links I need to add on the ends of the rack to keep it flush with the casting at full turn, it protrudes out past the frame edges creating a problem with the sway bar's movement. The centerlink tie rod centers are 8 3/4", and the lower control arm pivots/bolts are 14 3/4" center to center. I think the Mustang II inner link center's are out around 20-25". I don't need the power rack, but it'd be nice I guess. To sidestep the fitment issues, I'd gladly use a manual rack instead, but "as is" the Mustang II rack didn't make it for me. Kindly fill me in.......... Thanks, Bob
I don't know if this is of any help but I'm using a '86 Taurus rack in my OT '67 Mustang. You can install Mustang II inner tie rods which are shorter and they will take Fox chassis outer tie rods also. You'll just have to study the hole and taper sizes on spindles. I have some charts showing different parts that can be used I'll post later from home if you're interested. BTW Welcome!
Bob, The MII racks can be lengthened with a spacer that threads onto the end of the rack. They are available in various lengths and then I made up custom length tie rods. Memory won't let me tell you what materials, but it was a chromemoly tube we sleeved over the original rod that was split in the center. The tube was sleeved about an inch over the rod at each end and welded 360* with a couple of rosette welds about a half inch back. Ran it for 5 or 6 years. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/pl/90...,2105_Outer-Tie-Rod-and-Inner-Extensions.html
Scott, Yeah, I don't doubt you in that it'll install and steer the truck, but with the geometry of the S10 linkage, none of the Mustang racks in any year will fit the inner tie rod dimensions to avoid bumpsteer. It's those inner tie rod center positions that's the key ingredient in making a rack work on the S10 suspension. Now if you created some center take off setup to obtain those stock settings, then it could see how it'd work. As far as switching racks between Taurus's and Mustangs, I wouldn't know as I haven't tried it. As long as their measurements are the same, or very close, I could understand how it'd work. If the inner tie rod positions were already too far out, those extensions seem like they would make bumpsteer worse. Like I said, I could be admittedly missing something....... Bob
Your logig is sound. I'm sorry I can't remember more detail, but I drove it a long time with no bump steer that I recall. I didn't use dropped spindles or springs, but it did sit really low with the 4 cyl. springs under a V8. I had another V6 S10 that sat noticeably higher. Seems like I lowered the rear 2" to level it. It was really flat. Not sure how much difference that made. I want to say that the extensions put the ends of the rack very close to the same width as the pitman/idler arms, but it has been a while.
Scott, I'm not saying it's not possible, and with the multitude of products available, I could have easily missed something. The thing is, right now, I'm trying to locate something that will work for my application, so I'll gladly concede to be able to find it. I contacted Jorgensen yesterday to get the spec's on the BMW rack systems, and they stated that the racks ends (minus the tie rods) were 40". Looking at many, many photos, they appear much shorter than that, and I wished I had one to check, but Beemer racks are scarce....period. Based on the size of the pinion tower, the BMW rack is proportionally smaller than the Mustang rack, and I know the 95' power rack I have is 25" from inner to inner, so I think the tech. gave me the outer measurements (tie rods) by mistake. I asked twice, and he said yes, but he was reading off of a sheet, so who knows. I have another option of using a short pinion manual rack from a Mustang or Pinto. I can easily machine the housing and rack bar, shortening it to make an end take off rack. I tried the measurements last night, and layed the power rack out for sizing. I attached the end links to the rack, and measured inner ball centers, and found that by cutting the housing to 11 1/4", the ball centers on the inner links fell exactly at 14 3/4" on each side which is centered on the inner lower control arm pivots/bolts. I don't have the manual rack here now, but I used the power rack to size it up. A manual rack is much less complicated, and it would be much easier to modify. Re-machining the cut end of the rack bar, as well as cutting and rewelding, or machining the end back on the rack housing is no big deal. To be honest, while I was moving the rack back and forth on the crossmember, once I moved the rack/pinion to this particular spot, it dropped in against the crossmember like it was made for it. Just like playing Tetris. I had never moved the rack over that far to the passenger side before, and I'd already cut out the crossmember on the driver's side for all the racks I had tried before. When I moved the rack more to the left (facing the crossmember), the pinion tower wasn't in the cutout I had made, but it layed in perfect alignment, and right on top of the engine mounting surface of the crossmember......nice. For those who have engines mounted in their normal positions, and not farther back like mine, the short pinion rack would work perfect after being cut. If this all pans out, I'll gladly plate and weld that cutout of the crossmember back up and go this route......it looks good.....both visually & functionally. Yes Bill, I promise I'll take photo's......... Talk to you later guys...... Bob
Bob...I've been hopping around the net a bit and found several cars using S10 frames and M11 racks. NO details though...or testimonials on how the bumpsteer worked out. Thing is...they seem to be getting away with it despite the difference in pivot points that common sense says will result in bumpsteer! Makes me wonder whats up... Have you actually pulled a coil and set up a bumpsteer gauge to measure what the bumpsteer would be like at different inner pivot locations? I know it SHOULDN'T work, but I wonder is there a "sweet spot" that in combo with the normal range of motion of the front suspension (and control arm angle) allows the M11 rack to work? Tierod angles can make a BIG difference on an IFS. I had a car with a FACTORY screw up in the rack mounting that had one side of the rack only 1/4" to maybe 3/8" higher at the mounting bracket and it handled like crap! Cut the mount and leveled the rack...perfect road manners!!! I was very surprised how much of an effect that slight change had. What I'm getting at is...could raising or lowering the entire rack slightly to change tierod angles help compensate for too short arms inside the normal range of suspension motion? A mockup using your frame and a bumpsteer gauge could tell you lots about whats really happening down there...and what could actually be acceptable as opposed to mathematically perfect.
Bill, I haven't pulled a coil on the car or anything yet. Using new 4 cyl. coils and Energy Suspension components, I put the whole front end together coated and it looks so good I hate to tug it apart. Well after all the reading and internet surfing (like you & thanks by the way), Beemer racks, center take off's, end take off's yadda, yadda, yadda........after the measuring, and positioning and screwing around in the junkyards, I've finally decided what I'm gonna do, and it doesn't require any testing at all to function properly. To make a long story short (yeah, right), I called to speak with Dave Batke at Unisteer this morning. Dave was at a car show out in Montana, or Minnesota, or somewhere, so I got Steve Gorski, whom I dealt with through emails before. After chatting on the horn for about 35-40 minutes (great guy by the way), I had told Steve how the Mustang power rack layed in the car and said too bad this and too bad that, referring to how the pinion and rack lay nicely against the crossmember and all. And also my thoughts about making a center take off out of certain racks, but wishing they made an end take off rack and all for the S10. Steve said " a power rack might be a problem, but a manual rack wouldn't, we can cut any M2 rack down, what size do you need". I told him 14 3/4" ball centers, and he said definitely no power racks, but it would be do-able with the manual M2 racks. I about dropped. Like, no big deal..... We talked the making of the rack over the phone and he sent me a build sheet for the rack. We mulled this, over and that, and made changes from the M2 rack's configuration. The body of the rack will be about 11 1/4" long, a short pinion to keep the steering shaft close to the surface of the crossmember, instead of 2 mounting eyes on the bottom of the rack like all the M2's had, Unisteer has both ends (pinion & opposite) that have multiple bold holes to bolt straight into a flat plate. Steve said it'll be far more rigid. The rack travel will be an even 6 inches lock to lock, even for as small as it is, the inner tie rod ball centers will sit perfectly centered on the pivot bolts of the lower control arm. Steve mentioned that's the way it's suppose to be anyway. After I told him that S10's had an 8 3/4" centers on their cross link, he said that it was because of the geometry of that particular linkage. He said that if you start from scratch with a new system , you want your inners at the pivot point of the lower control arm (which we knew), and you want the tie rod arm to parallel the control arm all the way down to the outer tie rod point. It'll be a M2 shorty rack with custom mounting and a short pinion. It'll be manual, but after talking to Steve, he told me compared to the old systems, it's like power steering, and doubted that I'd care much. Funny, my brother said the same thing not 2 days before. I'm going to keep the build sheets around here, and Steve said that they'll keep it on file there because of the calls for streetrods using S10 chassis. I got looking at Flaming River racks and after seeing them at shows and on cars, and the fact that they'll totally ignore bumpsteer issues and toss you a rack right off the shelf with the proper length tie rod ends and tell you, "yup, it'll work", when it won't......that bugs me. Steve and I got going on that one........I've been seeing it for years with them. I saw a guy at the Syracuse Nationals 3 yrs. back buy the rack specifically for his streerodded Chevy (40 I think) that he had put on an S10 frame. Hearing what the guy told him, the FR Rep. went right over to a rack in the box that was clearly too wide, handed it to the guy and collected his cash. Apparently, the next day, ( I wasn't there) the guy came back and said it wouldn't fit ( because he had some smarter friends) and they argued with him that they've been selling that same rack to many others that converted the S10 to R& P with no problem. I don't know the final outcome. Unisteer is the answer to the streetrodder's prayers when it comes to steering, and instead of travelling all over looking on my own, (Dave's always at shows and hard to track down) I should've called Steve right off..........nice "scratch where it itches", behind the scenes kinda guy. Cost on my rack will end up around $300-350, delivered. What say you ? Take care, Bob
sweet! I think Bill is right about the tie rod angles. Ever seen one that they swept back to the steering arms? I am surprised that they will custom build at that price. Let us know how it all works out.
Excellent news! EXCELLENT price too! I'm a little iffy on using the S10 control arm bolts as the guide like you can with an M11 suspension... The front and rear control arm bolts of an S10 aren't as inline and parallel to the chassis centerline (looking down) as a M11, but you should be close with that new rack anyway. A hell of a lot closer than a full rack thats for sure!!! DON'T assume your dead on as you assemble just because the tierod SEEMS to be parallel with the lower control arm either! That can be very deceiving. Remember...your aiming for parallelism(?) with the inner pivot of the control arm/pivot center of the ball joint and the inner pivot on the rack/pivot center of the outer tierod. Doing it like that might (might not!) make the arms look slightly out of line but its correct. Regardless...I WOULDN'T weld anything together until I removed the springs and shocks so I could check for bumpsteer thru the range of motion! Extra work be damned...its just too important! Out just a little can make an IFS very squirrelly. Do it once... Now...how will the rack travel work with the length of the S10 steering arms? Will you still reach full turning radius (or close enough to be acceptable?) or do you need to shorten the arms? What a pessimistic pain in the ass I am huh??? LoL I'm sorry...I'm just trying to keep all potential issues on top of the table where they can be worked out ahead of time...ultimately gaining you success with the least number of surprises!
Your right Bill about being concerned with the angled pivot points of the lower control arm in relation to the tie rod....it's a natural concern. Although the pivot points are angular, the control arm still runs in a linear up and down track. The stock tie rods still run in the same straight path never the less, which is the same path the rack & pinion rods would also run. The stock inner tie rod link points are only 8 3/4 " from center to center, which is well within the control arm pivot points of 14 3/4 ". I wondered why this was the case, and Steve plainly said, that "they have to run parallel with the control arm in relation to it's outer link". He was right. If you look at their outer link point at the spindle, and follow it in, you can visibly see it parallel, or run even with the control arm. Even though it links well past the upper and lower control arm centerline, it's still inside that point and not outside of it like I mentioned before. Meaning that, any affect on bumpsteer when positioned inside that margin will be negligible. Beyond it, or outside of it, much more so. Steve mentioned that I want to focus on that pivot point and to keep the tie rod parallel to the control arm. With the M2 rack style tie rod ends (to fit S10's) they sit a little lower as well. I've graphed the control arm/spindle and mock tie rod movements on the frame using the centerpoints mentioned, and they can only go one way up & down from a fixed point. Using the inner control arm pivot point (bolt) and the outer spindle link, I slightly dimpled the bolt head with a punch and mig'd a sharpened finishing nail to both ends of a measured piece of rod. The total rod length corresponded to the inner control arm bolt (pivot point), and the center of the outer tie rod/spindle link. With a piece of flat sheet aluminum, I ran the homemade scratch awl up the aluminum leaving an arc. Suspension travel is only 4 to 4 1/2" from it's postion now (w/o engine & trans), up to it's bottomed out (fully compressed) position. Since the inner rod center point shares the same spot as the control arm, if the rod runs parallel with the control arm out to it's outer link point, it has to be the same. In other words it will run the same track as the control arm. I'm always testing things....sometimes to death, so I'm always looking for the weak link here. But so far, this is the best option. I have to head out to Syracuse tomorrow to do paint work on a couple of cars that guys want to run to the Nationals this July. One's a complete paint, and the other is just graphics (airbrushing). But, one of the guys (car owner) is a frame/suspension specialist, so I'll pass it by him for sh*t's & giggles. Talk to guys in a couple of days....... Bob
You guys Need some Oval track racers experiance and help,,, Oval track guys have been putting R&P on stock GM front frame sections for over 20 years,,, You can use a Mustang II Manual rack,, but you willhave to shorten it to ge the best bump steer. You Raise and lower the mounting of the rack tog help get your bump steer close, then fine adj, are done by spacers under the heim joints at the spindle steering arm. Your toe out on turns is determined by the for/aft plcement of the rack,,,the further BACK you place the rack, the more toe out on turns (ackerman } you will get on a FRONT steer Youcan buy a USED Racing Rack ( Sweet, Woodward, coleman) for about $150. see links,,, http://www.sweetmfg.biz/products3.asp?edit_id=45 http://www.sweetmfg.biz/products3.asp?edit_id=39 http://www.sweetmfg.biz/products2.asp?edit_id=33 http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=2&osCsid=e33553e9ae056164d9f9c55f384630ec Rack mount welds to stock cross member http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=2_127 Spacers to adj height of rack for bump steer. http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=2_1001 Pictuer of a Stock GM Camaro/Nova front frame modified for R&P,,, http://www.howeracing.com/Chassis/Index-FrontFrames-OEM.htm
Here is the woodward link for installing a rack,,,lot of tech info 17 pages,,, http://www.woodwardsteering.com/Cat05/Cat05%20PDF 63-79.pdf http://www.woodwardsteering.com/Cat05/Cat05 PDF 63-79.pdf http://www.woodwardsteering.com/techinfo.htm
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