First, the actual topic: -------------------------- A few details about me and what I'm hoping for (cause it's pertinant) -Live in Western PA (rain and, until recently, SNOW, relatively common) -Longest normal drive is 35 miles -Once every week or two, perhaps? 75 miles to Pittsburgh -Once in a blue moon? 215 miles to Canton or 350 miles to Philly -Budgeting 4k for a running cl***ic -Another 4k for after-purchase improvements to make it "daily worthy" -Hoping for 20+ MPG, ultimately -Looking primarily at 51-54 Buicks -Preferences: 1953 Super or Roadmaster -More interested in performance and reliability than "originality" - "style" is covered by my vehicle choice. Question 1: "AM I A TOTAL IDIOT WITH A PIPE DREAM?" (if "no" go on to next 3 questions) Question 2: "HOW CAN I PROTECT THE UNDERCARRIAGE OF A DAILY-DRIVER CL***IC FROM RUSTING TO DUST?" Question 3: "IN THESE CARS A V8, specifically a nailhead, WOULD OFFER BETTER mpg THAN A 6cyl, WOULDN'T IT?" (both my father and his friend have the same car- a Saturn Vue. The only difference is hers is a 4cyl, his is a 6 and he gets at least another 3-5mpg I think due to the hilly nature of where we live. less struggle.) Question 4: "IF I GET THE CAR I WANT, SHOULD I CONSIDER AN ENGINE SWAP WITH, SAY, A V8 FROM AN 80'S PICKUP?" And now a bit more personal detail (skip if you want, it's not that important): --------------------------------------------- There's multiple sub-points of this question, of course and though I'm new to the mindset of "stop dreaming about a rod and actually GET one" I know just enough to expect mockery and various defamatory comments about my common sense. As one eBayer told me recently when I asked about the approx MPG on his 1954 Roadmaster "if you're even ASKING that question maybe you should buy a Honda Civic." *sigh* Well excuse me for wanting a REAL car and not some modern tool to get me from A to B without even an ounce of individuality, personality or pride. And excuse me again for wanting enough performance and reliability from my chosen vehicle that I can confidently USE it as a daily driver. EVERYONE I know tells me to "be reasonable" and "buy the newest car you can" The questions I keep getting are "have you SEEN the price of gas?" and "You don't think you can drive a 50s car in the WINTER do you?" My responses to that are "Yeah, and I'm getting a motorcycle to offset the average gas mileage that I consume" and "Ever heard of undercoating?" But even then, being relatively new to the scene, I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe I've heard to many naysayers in the past couple months... Or maybe they're right. YOU guys are smart. YOU have this ****e down. YOU can help me, right? I figure if YOU all tell me that I'm looking at a Pie in the Sky, I'll just walk away and admit defeat. But if there's hope, I could sure use some. I'd hate to give up my dream of a real car.
I think you are missing the point of having a custom, cl***ic, traditional or a hot rod. The point is to have fun and not over ****yze with all of the questions. You get what you build and go from there. I'm sure that other people will not have the same feeling as me but that's what it is all about. Good luck on your Buick project, Keith.
Wha? Man this makes no sense. Just cuz its a car doesnt mean you have to drive it every day. Question 1: "AM I A TOTAL IDIOT WITH A PIPE DREAM?" No, but not well informed about old cars. Question 2: "CAN I PROTECT THE UNDERCARRIAGE OF A CL***IC?" The factory did it for you, which is why they made it out of steel. Like all other cars made. Ever. Question 3: "IN THESE CARS A V8, specifically a nailhead, WOULD OFFER BETTER mpg THAN A 6cyl, WOULDN'T IT?" K apples and oranges. You can have an 8 cyl getting 5 mpg, and a 6 getting 30. It isnt just the cylinders, its the whole setup....rear, trans, fuel/air induction (carb, fuel injection) blah blah. Question 4: "IF I GET THE CAR I WANT, SHOULD I CONSIDER AN ENGINE SWAP WITH, SAY, A V8 FROM AN 80'S PICKUP?" By asking this question, I dont think you could install said engine. 80s pickup, like a Subaru brat? A Ford diesel? When you go to the parts store you dont get "engine from 80s pickup". Look, no doubt your heart might be in it, but start slow man. Your ideas are way over your skill Im guessing. Get something to tinker with, have another car incase the old car breaks. **** happens. Always. Do that and you will be fine, while learning as you go.
Generally speaking, I'd like to have that at***ude exclusively but being as this is going to be my ONLY car, I have to take those sort of things into consideration, at least. I'm willing to give up a lot of modern convenience in my one and only 4-wheeled ride but there has to be at least a shred of utilitarian value to validate my choice. Ultimately, I guess it's that I'm not afraid to risk "looking like an idiot" and asking these questions. But I've found woefully little on either subject (gas usage & weather) when talking about cl***ics. Maybe it's because so many only break them out on spring and summer weekends or for shows. Thanks for the support, though, Keith! I'm glad the first words I got were of encouragement.
Longesst drive is 35 miles, so average is 20? 5 times a week? Say 150 miles a week, 7500 per year. So the difference between 12 and 20 MPG is 250 gallons or $800/year. Doesn't really justify worrying about engine swaps.
You're absolutely right. I know VERY little. I wasn't fortunate enough to have a single friend or family member that was a "gear head" so I never learned the standard stuff that a lot of people, especially on HAMB, take for granted. That's why I'm swallowing my pride and asking this stuff. I had hoped that I COULD get a well-operating car, immerse myself in manuals and consume all the literature that I could so that when something needed to be addressed, as in all cars old or new, that I could learn through my car and over time be able to repair and adjust some things on my own. Would I be right then in extrapolating the following points from your advice? 1- These cars are too old to run every day like they once did. 2- Only a "mechanic" or a "millionaire" has what it takes to maintain a vintage ride.
Oh, and "mea culpa" on that, too. My phrasing SHOULD have included the words "from the rigors of moisture and salt." The 51 Buick Special I had a look at yesterday looked sorprisingly good until I laid down for a looksee at the underbelly and found a forest of rust. I might be a bit of a confessed idiot with this stuff but I do know that water and steel don't tend to interact well, hence my desire to protect it with some sort of undercoat... or is even SUGGESTING something like that only proving my sheer idiocy?
Hmm, ok...well this is actually funny. I am exactly 4 days older than you. Growing up nobody was into cars. My first car was a 65 Mustang and it was my only driver. The high school was right down the street, and even with that commute that car gave me a ton of ****. Now... No, dont be a jack***. But you sound like you dont know your *** from your elbow, so what you want to hear is yes...get a 50s Buick, rubber undercoat it, and install an 80s pickup engine. Then yes, it will be a daily driver. No man, thats not the way it works. I dont care how many manuals you have, if a brake hose busts on the road and your pedal goes to the floor what are you going to do? A generator takes a **** 300 miles from home, are you going to tow it home and seek council from your "manuals". Be mu guest. Most of your $4k budget will be spent on that tow bill. Either you have skill or money. Thats the way it is with anything, home repair, cars, you name it. I saved myself thousands of bucks the past few weekends doing home plumbing, electrical, landscape work myself. Guess it was my family and friends that were "into houses". Nope, self taught. Son of a gun... If you have $4k to plunk down, go for it. But either the "millionare" can afford the fully restored to new-drive anywhere without a worry car, or the "mechanic" can easily repair, at times roadside, the car he could afford, in far worse shape than the millionare. With $4k, you arent the former in this situation.
Advice from somebody who was there 20 years ago. #1 forget that "I'm buying a motorcycle to save gas" fallacy. Budget for purchase, insurance, and maintenance on that bike and it just ate your savings. Proper street riding gear alone is over $500. #2 Consider keeping your current car, or split your budget. Slice 2k off the 8k you wanna spend on the car. 2k will buy a great beater if you shop right. The worst part of relying on a cl***ic is the deadline pressure it puts on you. As long as the car has to run tomorrow, you will never be able to do today's repair properly. When working on the car becomes a stress filled deadline race, old cars quit being fun real fast. Think about it. #3 Despite your love for the early buicks, there's not alot of aftermarket support, and not a huge pool of knowledge out there. For somebody on a budget, not sure I'd recommend a car that NAPA doesn't stock a starter for. Couple this with #2, and you've got a recipe for disaster. Gas prices are really the least of your worry. Supporting a 50 year old machine's demand for replacement parts should be your worry. Personally I don't have a problem with your at***ude or "fancy" words. lol Your head is in the right place, tweak that plan and you've got a winner. Good Luck!
First thing is those care are heavy and even with the strait 8 they use gas. I have owned a 53 special Riv with a 455 olds in it, and I now have a 50 seadanette Buick with a 472 Cad in it. Obviously it does not take a brain surgeon to figure out gas stations are my best friends. I say buy the car and tin ker with it, also buy a Cobalt or Focus for everyday use. But whatever you do don't give up! Rags
What they said - you can buy a decent late-model for $1500 or $2k easily around here. Make sure you ante up and get it checked by a mechanic if you're as new to this as you seem. Then, find yourself a nice, COMMON old car that runs, drives, and stops WELL and buy it. Make sure it's something you see a lot of - for instance, I'd go for a '49-54 Chevy over a Buick because they're everywhere, they sell any part on them (almost), and they made the engines in them for YEARS. Also, all the engineering is done on any upgrade you wanna do, so it only takes money to get them going. Have your fun with that and, once your mechanical skills catch up with your enthusiasm, go buy that straight-8, torque-tube Buick. You do know that 'swapping a nailhead' into that Buick will require a new ******, rear end, driveshaft, and the means to hang it all, right? Honestly, unless you score a NICE running nailhead, you could spend almost $4k rebuilding one and then you gotta come up with a ******/rear for that torque monster and figure out how to hang it. If you buy something like a Chevy, it'll allow you to meet lots of people who can help you learn things first-hand. Never shy away from 'helping someone work on' their old car, even if you're just fetching tools, you will learn something everytime. IF you don't buy a daily, your 'cl***ic' will become an exercise in frustration. I figured out a long time ago that wrenching is only fun when it doesn't HAVE TO be on the road to go to work the next morning....
Time, Talent and Money. That's the 3 ingreadents to owning an old car. Not to rain on your parade but you got to have at least one of the ingreadents to play. $4000 might work if you had the talent, but it sound like you don't. Not knokin you, but you just don't learn this from a book, it takes hands-on type of stuff (time). I've seen lots of guys jump in, spend what little cash they have buying a project, then tear it apart with grandure plans to build. They don't have the talent or maybe the time to do it or the money to hire it done, so soon it's just sitting in a garage or driveway, the wife's pissed, neibors are pissed, so it goes down the road for a fraction of what it was worth. It's good to want, but be realistic on what you can afford.
I drove a 49 plymouth to college...in 1997. The doors and door windows had no weatherstrip and when semi's p***ed me snow blew in. I couldnt fill up with gas over half way because the tank leaked at the seam. My king pins, etc were so worn out that if I went from a left turn to a right one I could feel the car swapping slop from one side to another. I lived in a ****py apartment with no garage and had nowhere to work on the thing without a 1.5 hour trip to my dad's house. Would i do it again. Heck yeah, in a heartbeat. Was it fun? At times, it ****ed. Other tmes it was a blast. It took a lot of money to keep it on the road. And it got probably 20 mpg from a 351 Windsor and a C6 with a high rear gear. Only difference I see is that I had been wrenching since I was in diapers and had SOME knowledge of what I was getting in to. More than anything you need to make sure you have a few things: 1. Some place indoors to work on this piece. Concrete floors and heat are a definite plus, especially in PA. 2. A ride to work for the days (sometime week) that it wont be running due to waiting on parts or in-depth upgrades, etc. 3. TWICE the money IN THE BANK that you think it will take you to do ANYTHING before you start. If all the parts you can imagine add up to $1500 you better have $3000 to spend, youll need it. 4. A pair of scissors. Take your credit cards right now and cut them up. Dont restore a car on a credit card. You'll get broke and tired of the constant work and sell the car way too cheap. It will then take 5 years to pay off the cards. Trust me, this one comes from experience. I'd love to see you make it with this project. A lot of people here sound negative but, as I thnk you mentioned, there is a lot of experiance here. I'm sure others just worry that you'll fail. But for most of us, the failure is what got us here. Without that experience we would be like Joe Schmo in his Volvo 760 just driving to and from work without a clue.
I would get a $1000 beater to drive every day while you work on your old car. I would also suggest NOT starting with an engine swap 'cuz you'll drive yourself crazy. Like someone stated above, the difference in mpg really doesn't make that much of a difference, and some of these old cars can get 18-20mpg or more. Find an old car that is complete, running, driving, stopping, and learn that way.
Thanks everyone for your advice! It's definitely given me a lot more clarification on the things I should be considering and the level of work and time that's gonna be involved. Appreciate it!
Bah. You may not be able to buy the "hot rod" but you can buy and live with an old car. I simply wanted a driver. Something that wouldn't take me two years to build. You can do that after getting a driver. I spent 4K on a very low miles, very solid 54 Chevy. Now I get maybe 16 mpg but you still have the other 4K for gas mileage (or spend 1K on a nice old Honda MC). I drive 50 miles round trip to work. Starts at 5 degrees after sitting outside. Get towing with your insurance and if it breaks down away from home, simply have it towed home. No big deal. Now, this isn't like driving a Cavalier. You have to adjust things on occasion. Check the oil now and then. You have to change it more regularly. Look for a good deal. Get the mostsolid car you can find for the money. If you decide later an old car isn't for you, you can always get most if not all of your money back out of it if you buy wisely. No, my car isn't going to impress many here, but I didn't buy it for that. After working 12 hours it's very relaxing to get in and make the drive home. I love the smell and way it drives. Enough said. You can do it. P.S. You'll get alot of smart ***es with smart *** replies with your newbie questions but overlook them. There are plenty here and other sites who are ready to help with questions.
Lots of good advice here...I'll second that a '50s Buick might not be the best choice for a sole vehicle...when stuff breaks (and it will), it's NOT cheap. 50 bucks for voltage regulators...23 bucks a lifter, 250 bucks to rebuild the front shocks, CONSTANT tinkering...and as much as I'd love to...I couldn't drive it in the salt...you could almost watch it deteriorate, and it's made it this far, so I do my best to preserve it. I drive the hell out of it all spring, summer, and fall though. Old Buicks are the best, but, like a lot of the posts above, I'd recommend a somewhat newer vehicle with cheap parts and a throwaway air about it for every day...good luck! P.S. My straight 8 Dynaflow gets 9-10 MPG around town...up to 20 (maybe) if you point it down the highway and never stop and have a tailwind...more like 15-16 on most highway days...
To address one of your questions; I doubt that an old car like the Buick could possibly withstand any more salt. I know people in PA who've had their modern, zinc-coated, plastic-wheelwell-lined cars red-tagged for "loss of frame structural integrity" after as little as 8 yrs. on the salt. Older cars just were not built to be protected from salt working its way into all kinds of nooks and crannies. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't buy one and enjoy it when you can!
Well, that's definitely answered my initial Noob questions! Thanks to all of you guys (and an extra special thanks to Shifty who took a lot of time sending me a detailed email) I've got a FAR better idea of what can and CAN'T be easily done for someone on my level just looking to get into all of this stuff. I'll take plenty of time and care in choosing my car and in the meantime, am nixing the motorcycle plan for a 2k beater car that I know is reliable. Until I find what I'm looking for, I'll read all that I can and help out a friend's neighbor who I've found out is a ******** hot rodder and cl***ic car mechanic! "Learn by Doin," right?
I drive my 37 pu almost every day, rain or shine, and the rare cold days. But I also have my dodge tow vehicle for a back up. With breakdowns there it AAA they are not that much a year and they usually cover towing. Just something to look into. good luck! Hotrodding is not a bad thing.
I drove a '62 Falcon Wagon (chick magnet ) for a year and a half as my daily. I had to rebuild the fuel pump on the road side but it was easy enough to do. I also drove a '42 GMC 3/4 ton for about 2 years as a daily witha 30 mile round trip to work. (That truck was a chick magnet too, but they all had blue hair and wanted me to clean their gutters and haul away old refrigerators... )I had to rebuild the front end and do a complete brake job. I was fortunate enough to have the tools, a place to work , and the skills to handle all these repairs. Even when the torque-tube setup failed (snapped an intermediate propeller shaft) I was able to have a new one machined ($145) and get it back on the road, but that took 2 weeks to get done. Old cars as daily drivers can be done but it's a **** shoot sometimes. Was it worth it to me? Hell yes, that's why I did it. But the downside is the down time, the weekends spent wrenching, the constant little maintenance issues, and longer trips being limited to how brave I was feeling. If you do go ahead with this, get the best car you can up front and take your time shopping. Take someone who knows what they're doing when you look at cars. And I'll second the idea of getting a 'common' car like a Chevy or Ford. Parts can be had fairly easily and that's going to make staying on the road less of a h***le. Good luck and stick with us - TONS of great guys and galls here and more knowledge than you find in anywhere. Keep using those big words too, just don't get too pedantic on us.
Actually, old trucks are EASY to work on. You might have to buy and sell (working your way up) several vehicles before you get your dream Buick. Start with a running vehicle and learn a few things with it. Then sell it - hopefully for a profit - and buy your next project, eventually ending up with your Buick. About the old trucks: 50's and 60's trucks are HOT now. There is plenty of aftermarket support for original and upgraded drivelines. For example, if you find a nice 1965/1966 Ford F-100 you can use the front disc brakes and power steering from a 1967-1979 Ford truck for bolt-in upgrade. The motor mounts from those years all interchange, too. That's the easy way to learn about engine swaps. And these trucks sell like hotcakes so it will easy to sell when you find your next project. If the F-100's sound interesting, check out: http://www.slick60s.org . I'm sure there are GM sites equivalent to that but you get the idea. To sum it up, you might have to buy and sell a few rides to get to that Buick, but don't give up. If you start with the Buick you probably will (give up). Tracy
Heh... thanks Mike. Have to admit that I was a bit surprised to get **** for something like that. My father was a teacher and I had a really strict school based upbringing so that's just the way I was raised. Always wanted to be a writer and used to practice my *** off doing it. It wasn't meant to offend anyone but you never know what's gonna set people off I guess, whether you mean to or not. I will stick around cause this is something that I'm really serious about. And Thanks, D.T. I hadn't thought of that idea, but it's a pretty effing good one! Could be a lot of fun too and teach me a lot more than just finding and working on a single vehicle. If something comes up, I'll definitely consider it. Why ARE old trucks really hot right now? I've definitely noticed more on the street and a lot more selling on the 'bay.
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