Tudor titling attempt strike two!!!

I went to a different Secretary of State today with the tudor and roadster titles I purchased. I told the woman "I have some old titles and I'd like to do a transfer." She looks at them quizzingly and asks "What year are they?" I tell her "they're both 1930" She says, "Well it doesn't say that on here." The titles are so old they don't have a Y.O.M, just a serial number rubber stamped on the sheet. Of course she has no way of looking up the number. Then starts giving me grief about "Junk" written on the top corner of the tudor's title. "If it has junk written on it, we can't do anything." I say "Fine, if the word junk wasn't on here and there was a 1930 printed on here somewhere we wouldn't have this problem right?" She agreed, then she looks at the roadster title and says "This one hasn't been signed off by the owner, and it doesn't have a year on it either." She instructs me to get a hold of the person on the title. I inform her that said paper is almost 80 years old an I seriously doubt that person is still on the right side of the grass. "Well you need to contact his widow or children, or estate." I tell her I'll take care of the signature but what do I do about the lack of Y.O.M? She tells me to get ahold of the Sec. of State in Maryland where the titles were issued and see if they could come up with the info that includes the years of the vehicles.

So I leave there after a wasted 40 mile round trip and call up the DMV in Maryland. I tell the operator my problems and she has no way of tracking down the VIN or title number. Imagine that, they can't find 77 year old information. Then the woman suggests I get a Writ of Mandamus from a district judge. WTF!?!?!!? I don't want to involve a police officer in this titling, I definitely don't want to involve a judge. She informs me this is an act where the judge essentially says the car belongs to you. I don't know, anybody go this route? I'm getting really frustrated, I bought these fucking titles so I wouldn't have to go through all this hastle.

 

Without a year on them you will probably have to get a local titleling company involved to verify numbers. It aint gonna be cheap but it is better than nothing , I have never seen a title or older registration without a year though, Good luck

Rusty

 

Thanks, I tried that route. I called all fourteen title places in the phonebook and all they deal in is properties. They pretty much all told me "You should try the secretary of state."

 

Let me get the ladies number here that helped me with mine. All I had was some numbers on a frame and she got me mine. She does auto titles only and thast is what you will need. It may take a couple months but you will get a title if they are clear.

Rusty

 

Why can't you walk in with a copy of "Standard Catalog of Ford" or an older repair manual, and show them in that book where it shows what year the serial numbers fall under? Hindsight's 20-20 and all, but I think I would have brought one with me just in case the person I was to see was uninformed.

Makes me glad I live in NY, at any rate.

 

If all early Ford numbers are sequential, couldn't you just print off a page showing the number/year relationships, thus showing the first number applying to your year and the last?
Your number will obviously be between that range of numbers so...your title must be for that specific year!

Makes sense to me...but that isn't saying much! LoL

Ahhh...Rusty has a better idea along the same lines!

 

Never had to go through the process but the writ of mandamus basically says the judge agrees that you have enough "consideration" for the car/property/etc for it to be considered legally yours even if you don't have signed paperwork stating the fact. Consideration can be construed as money invested (labor, time, parts) storage fees, etc. Its a relatively painless process as far as I know but it takes time to happen and some court fees, application fees, etc.

I'm assuming these titles are not actually for the frames you have? You might be better off trying to get a constructed vehicle title. Just a thought.

 

All my title has is a list, this is what is looks like:

MAKE BODY ORIGINALLY TITLED ENGINE NO. SERIAL NO. H.P

FORD TUD. SED. USED AXXXXXXX 25
9-1-33
This is rubber stamped under the designations above. Also in the stamp is the owner's name and the county it was issued. The only other number is the title number which the woman in Maryland told me was invalid because it had a letter desigantion and 6 digits instead of eight like the current title #'s.

 

Okay.

Been through this recently with a motorcyle here in Michigan.

Go to the State of MI website; get the form that allows the police to validate the car, fill it out and go to the local cop shop. Explain to the desk jockey your predicament, and all they'll do is run the VIN on the title - which will come up clean, since they don't carry records on pre '68 VINs (non 17 digit coding).

the 'trick' is you gotta get the cop inna good mood; I did that by showing up with one of my 'rides' - in this case, a sidecar motorcycle. He filled out my paper without a second look.

the Secretary of State staff have been trained to reject the documentation you have unless it's been validated; you can't avoid the cop step without lots of paper.

I've got an open MI Opel title if you need it...

 

I've got an original model A chassis sitting in the garage for a future project. Should I use the numbers off that when I go to the cop shop with my sec. of state paperwork? If the police inspect it aren't they going to tell me to put bumpers, wipers, blinkers, seat belts, and all the emission crap on it? I'm trying to avoid going the assembled vehicle route.

 

cops are gonna check only for the things they need to check for; a title transfer has NOTHING to do with vehicular safety. Besides - they can't make a Model A adhere to anything other than Model A specs - especially if the car is a rolling chassis. you're waay better off doing it now - than letting the cop see a finished product, IMHO.

 

That Mandamus sounds similar to what Scoob had to do here in Indiana:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105603


Good luck getting it through. We ought to keep a repository of title tales in the archives if we don't already. Since it varies by state... and in some cases by who you talk to on what day.

 

the people at the MVA here in Maryland aren't too bright either.

 

Mandebus is latin for mandate. Basically if you can go to a local magistrate, or a Justice of the Peace with you paper work and explain the situation, take the sequential serial number info with you, he issues a writ (legal order) mandating (compelling) that the governmental agency do its job and issue the proper paper work. Basically he is validating your papers and telling them to do their job.

 

Um...let me see if I have this right....you are trying to pass a title off as belonging to your car when it didn't originally belong to your car?.....and you are frustrated that the Secretary of State person isn't being deceived?

Can’t you title a home built car legally in Michigan? (I mean without fraud)

 

bad rod said it. what you are doing is illegal. you can't pass off an 80 year old title and say it belongs the the body you have, unless of course it actually does. then you would have to use a good portion of the car from which it came in your HOT ROD... even if your old title had a year and numbers on it.. what if the actual car is still on the road? how you gonna explain that?

you sound like you think you are doing this all correct but it is far from it

if it was an easy thing to register a HOT ROD with an old scap of paper what's to keep theives from stealing your car and re registering it with any old title they could come up with

the only way to do it (still illegally) is to get a current title and register the car in your name using that.

I'd try to go down and see what it takes to register it as a hand built HOT ROD.

 

Here is something new to try.........if you are pals with any bigger used car dealer. The car dealers always deal with the same few people at the dmv and generally get along with them well. Have a buddy sell one of your car- titles to the dealer then buy the car -title back from the dealer. He (the dealer) must do the title work for you. You get the title in the mail a week or so later with your name on it. Don't be too cheap on the what you paid....$ ....sales tax. Michigan dealers must do the title transfer for you on the the cars they sell.

No numbers on the paper won't work though. Somehow get the vin numbers to show up on the paperwork.

Rules in michigan changed a bit about six months ago. You no longer need a vin number inspection by an officer. Simply get a receipt with a sellers name, date, make, vin number, and purchase price. . Take the receipt down to the dmv and apply for title. Say " I would like to apply for a title for this old car please". "Seller lost title but here is my bill of sale." You may have to wait while they run the numbers check. May take an hour or maybe 3 or 4 hours depending how busy they are. This way for sure works here in michigan to get a title for an old car. Your two existing "titles" you could maybe resell. Steve.

 

I got some stuff like that once when trying to regester a car that had passed through a few owners with out any paper. When I found the family of the last guy on the title I found he was indeed dead. So, knowing he wouldn't mind I signed his name. I also over wrote the date. I thought it looked pretty phoney, but DMV loved it. Been 27 years now, guess I got away with it.

 

That was my original intent. I went to the SOS and asked them what I needed to do to title a hot rod I was building. I needed doccumentation i.e. manufacturer, price I paid, and the address where I got the frame, body, rear axle, transmission, engine, ect. They needed to know how much I payed for basically every component of the car so they knew what to charge me. I was told I also needed to have a police officer inspect the car to make sure it had all the needed safety devices. I don't know if that meant bumpers, wipers, and blinkers but I don't want any of that stuff. Pretty much the only thing Model A on my car is the body. It's got a fabbed up frame, Ford 9" and a SBC.

After finding out what a hastle that route was I discovered all you need to register a car in Michigan is a title. So I got one and now I'm running into this mess. Yeah it doesn't belong to the car, the title has "junk" written on it so the original car is long gone. Look on Ebay, people sell titles all the time. Everybody wants to go the easy route (like I thought I was) instead of jumping through the hoops at the DMV.

 

The lost title thing seems like the way to go. The only problem is I don't have a VIN number. I bought a shell, and that's it. The brass body tag fell off eons ago and the pattent tag is just a corroded gray and white square of pot metal on the firewall. I do have a brass tag from another cowl I bought just for a firewall, maybe I could use that?

 

i thought you had a VIN number....XXXXXXXXXXX..produced january of 1931????

 

The numbers used for vehicle id are only in 2 places:
On the engine.
On the frame. (top of driver's frame rail under the cowl)

NO ID NUMBERS WERE PUT ON THE BODY.

 

Lucky77,

I don't now how it works in Michigan, but in California the DMV works for the people (yeah I know, not all California DMV people act like it). Frankly, it doesn't suprise me that you hit a brick wall with your approach. I would be suprised if your DMV person didn't know exactly what you were trying to do - it being illegal.

I am going through exactally what you are going through with a motorcycle. I built a bike from scratch, nothing but parts over a couple of years. The aftermarket frame has no vin number. I have nothing....no title, no receipts for anything, no paperwork what-so-ever. All I have is a complete bike that I wanted to get titled and on the road. The California DMV waved the requirement for recepts of the engine and frame because I don't have them - they made me fill out what I think they called a "statement of fact" saying that I built the bike from scratch and had no reciepts. I have to get a California highway patrol officer to issue a VIN number to the bike and then the DMV will issue a title. My bike (a 1969 bike) will be a 2007 specially constructed vehicle. So, it will take me three trips (2 to the DMV and 1 to the CHP) to get a perfectly legal title, registration and plates. But, that isn't to bad.

You need to do what you need to do, but for me in a similar situation I chose to go the fully legal route to title my new build.

Mike

P.S. I also had great luck getting a new title to replace my missing title from my 1959 Ranchero. It has a vin number and only took one trip to the DMV.

 

Bikes are different than cars, though. Bikes aren't required to have airbags and meet smog laws persuant to 2007. Cars are. There are considerations in the laws for homebuilt motorcycles............very few considerations for cars. Bumpers, fenders, turn signals, wipers, etc. are required by many (most?) states for a "specially constructed (current model year) vehicle". It'd be nice if cars were as easy to register as "custom builds" as bikes are.

Tim D.

 

Cut through all this crap and use Broadway title. It works easy and if your not doing anything illegal don't worry about it.

http://broadwaytitle.com/how.htm

I used Broadway on two cars in the last year and it worked great. The cleark at the DVM was a little confused but I left with titles in my name and they weren't for 2007 home builts.

Brick

 

what you need to do is go to a sos that issues titles on the spot. i just titled a '65 gmc pickup with nothing more than a bill of sale and a vin #. the truck came out of alabama. the sos started to give me grife on it and i just ask for them to pull there book on title info . she then looked up alabama's stat's.then she told me they need to run the #'s to make sure it was not stolen and it would take 20 min to an hour. 45 min later i was on my way. what it sounds like to me is it was just to much work, pain in the ass, ect for her to do. here are a couple of things i would try, bring in 1 title at a time and tell them that you brought this old car and parts from this "old" guy in what ever state the title is from.also tell them you have a bill of sale from said person(make sure it is in a differnt hand writing than your own) with a decent $ amount on it(i like $1500 to $3000 for the amount)for the taxes. have your story down so it sounds smooth and beliveable and try not to get mad.if you lived over here i would say go to the hudsonville office as they have delt with issue for me with no questions asked,just a signed stayment saying the info is correct to the best of my knowlage. good luck with this. Trout

 

Scott,
Another option is to buy an Model A registration from another state. I got a 1955 registration for my 32 from a New York junk yard. New York didn't have titles in 1955 so the SOS accepted the signed off registration as proof of ownership.
Stay away from going the manufactured vehicle route. They inspect them for bumpers, lifgts, windshield wipers etc. A buddy of mine in Cass City just went through and it wasn't easy.

 

I think you are safer using the frame that has a serial number and applying for a title to that...a title based on paper that cannot be linked to a number on the car is dangerous, I think.
Also, finding someone who can run your number is important on an "A" because MANY A's have been titled over the years based on the easy to find engine number from a swapped in rebuilt engine...so, even if you have the frame with that number or know for sure that the car was melted in 1942, someone may be out there with a Model A running and titled from that engine...Lord knows what the legalities are when you have an actual real chassis with bill of sale and real serial number, but someone else has used that number...

 

I guess this is why you need to ask these questions before you buy it, invest money in it, etc. I understand your problem, Lord knows we see this same question asked almost every week now but, you have to understand that the rules are set up for a reason and that's to keep people from titling stolen vehicles. We also see posts about stolen hot rods almost every week. So, you need to consider that before you go off the deep end. If it was as easy as some people think is should be, all of our hot rods would be stolen and retitled somewhere else. Two sides to the story here but what it boils down to is buyer beware. An old boat saying comes to mind: The happiest days of a boaters life are the days he buys it and the day he sells it. Puzzled?

 

Sorry if im highjacking the post here, but just wanted some clarification on somethings said here. Alot of you make a statement something like this "just take an original number off the frame and use that to apply for a title".

I have an original model A frame with a legible number on it that falls within the year 1931. Can I just go to the DMV and say I need to apply for a lost title and give them this number, which they will run to make sure it is not in use or stolen or something, and then they will give me a title? What about body style (mines a coupe), where would that fit into the equation?

I also have a hand written "bill of sale" from some guy thats about 5 or 6 years old. Is this worth anything (it doesnt reference the serial number)

Thanks - Scott