I see ***les and/or registrations for sale here in the cl***ifieds all the time. Looks like a great option for someone needing a ***le. Getting one in TN is easy enough if you have a little time so I'm not a buyer. What I'm wondering is..... where do these darn things come from? How does someone come across 10, 20, or 100 old ***les? I have no agenda. I'm just curious. JH
i think alot of times they come from junkyards someone takes the car to the yard...signs off on it but the junkyard never actually goes through filing for it to be "junked" so the outstanding ***les live on while the car doesnt then these are sold as a decorative display piece to hang on your wall
yeah.. prolly junkyards if there is a bunch. here's an interesting ***le story. I met a guy at a swap meet who built a model A using the original frame. when he went down to register it, he found the numbers were already being used. so I sold him my ***le to another A that no longer existed.
i was at a junk yard years ago & the owner pulled out a stack of ***les that would scare ya. man he had a stack at least 6" high.
"when he went down to register it, he found the numbers were already being used" That's gonna be happening a lot...a big source of hotrod frames and parts now is streetrodders, who buy a Ford, sell the ch***is and parts that have the actual serial number, and keep the body and ***le to register their replicars...if one guy owns the paperwork, and another guy can show the actual ch***is with numbers and a bill of sale, who actually owns the car that is now two cars?? And--does the winner of the discussion own both cars or will there be no winner at all and some sort of state action to block ***les on two suddenly illigitimate vehicles??
In line #1 at the DMV: Streetrodder joe, holding a legitimate ***le, but able to show only a brand-new framerail with nothing at all or perhaps crudely stamped hardware-store number set serial... In line #2, is HAMBer chuck, clutching a bill of sale for Joe's discarded ch***is, and able to show the inspecting officer a real Ford with real frame carrying a clearly old serial that is the same as the one on Joe's paper... Who goes home with what?? What happens to which car?? Who is in trouble?? My head hurts, but I bet this happens to someone on the HAMB real soon.
I have around 100 ***les laying around for cars that no longer exist. They came from my salvaging days. Around here the local junkyards usually need the ***les but I dealt with two places that didn't require ***les as long as the cars were at least nine years old. Both were considered crushing yards meaning once it came in nothing left there without being shredded or taken straight to a shredder. The one with the shredder on site never sold parts but the other one that had the offsite shredder would sell parts and cycles only to us that were regular guys. Anybody he didn't know was told sorry were not allowed to sell parts. Anyway back on topic I never turned the ***les in because I figure I didn't have to and you never know down the road. Steve
Well ... I was "stuck" with this dilemma. The previous owner - a friend - of my '28 "A" used the serial number off the original block when he registered his new '28 "A." I on the other hand TRIED to used the number from the original frame. First attempt at registration showed the number was ALREADY in use! To solve this problem - his is on the road; mine isn't yet - I went hunting for a "junk" "A" engine and "bought" the number from the owner of the junk engine complete with ***le. (his body and frame was too far gone to resurrect) Had the number run through our (Canadian) DMV serial number search; and it came up clean. Mind you, I had a heck of a time convincing the young lady at the DMV office; that a '28 Ford "A" Tudor never came with a 17 digit VIN number!! (she had to get a "senior" supervisor to confirm that, yes, they didn't use 17 digits 79 years ago!! )
A Model A could EASILY have become three cars that could potentially be registered under the same serial #...perhaps one guy has a restoration registered by engine number because he has a rebuilt engine original to your car...a streetrodder owns the body and ***le paper for his TCI ch***is...and someone else is building a rod on the original frame, and is planning to apply for registration from the serial number clearly stamped on it... I think a biologist would call this reproduction by budding...a DMV enforcer might call it something else, but what?? Where is the actual car in what has become 3-card Monte with three Model A's based on legitimately purchased parts belonging to people who certainly don't see themselves as felons?
This reminds me of the axe my dad has and swears it used to belong to George Washington - quite possibly the same one he used to chop down the fabled cherry tree. Of course, the handle has been replaced 4 times and the head twice, but it is the same exact one!
I'm getting scared....I think I'll head out to the garage and hug Big Olds.......as soon as I stamp my vin# in a few more places.
I agree with large lots of ***les coming from junkyards. Beware though when buying a ***le. There was a guy here in Ohio that got busted on like 458 counts of ***le fraud in the last year or so. And the kicker, he actually keep records on who he sold the ***les to! I know people that bought and used the ***les he sold that got calls from sheriffs, deputys and like minded concerned folks. I guess though in this hobby there really isn't anyway to avoid buying "historical do***ents", at least here in Ohio anyways.
Call me Streetrodder Joe, then. The more yunz guys talk about it online, the harder it will get to put old iron back on the road.
Soooo....pulling a FORD body from it's original frame(if ya even have it) and putting it on, oh say a repop '32 frame (as MANY here have done) make it a replicar????? Interesting point of view, esp since ALOT of 'traditional' builds are done this way as well as the 'street rodders'.......
When I went to get a ***le for my RPU all I had to do was provide a tracing of the VIN # (for which I used a part number stamped into a subrail) and a Bill of Sale from the previous owner. I had a ***le for a 1928 Ford Roadster Truck in two weeks. I feel for you guys (& ladies) who have to fight the DMV on issues like these. JH
FWIW...There's a name for this replication or replacement dilemma, it's called Theseus' paradox... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus%27_paradox Alot of guys say they "restored" a car...but if you've replaced most of it, which car did they restore?
"Soooo....pulling a FORD body from it's original frame(if ya even have it) and putting it on, oh say a repop '32 frame (as MANY here have done) make it a replicar?????" Call it what you will--but unless system is run very sloppily (granted that it often is...), a ***le and a serial number are s**** paper/metal without each other...and a Ford serial is ONLY on the frame and trans or engine. A ***le and a body can't add up unless no one is looking closely. Lots of DMV's will honor the paper without seeing the car, and many would be unable to distinguish between a real serial on a frame and something you stamped last week, BUT some place already require verification of numbers by an officer, some places have reference books illustrating proper serials, AND a total stanger could potentially blow you into court by registering some other chunk of your car. Plus, I believe stamping a serial on your own is a felony. A serial can only be original or state issued. All this plus signs like the infamous Boyd crackdown, the tax potential of old cars for the states, increased Fed interest in do***enting everything, and other trends of our times suggest that ***ling by unconventional means will become harder and that a car whose ***le and ch***is number don't match might potentially kick up trouble in the future. Old car people generally are dealing with piles of stuff they own quite legitimately and honestly, but unconventional ***ling technically can make them actual criminals in the eyes of the law. I don't like that and don't know what the answer is besides horrible ***embled car ***les and state issued replacement serial tags (I have a '32 with one of those, by the way). And, just to keep up the misery, all this is handled differntly in each of 50 states and 10,000 DMV offices, so no one's answer applies to anyone else's problem... I firmly expect the feds, like it or not, to eventually step in and enforce defacto national standards and verifiable identification just as they have with driver's licenses, which are really becoming national ID cards. I recently had to ride the trains for several months because I could not meet current ID standards for a license renewal in NJ--I was born in China just as the old government left town and Mao moved in, so I have no original ***le myself--I know what it's like to meet federal ID standards without conventional paper. It is no fun. Bruce, the illegal Chinese alien with the fugitive driver's license.
Very true. One thing we Canadians have in our favor, is the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police - our national police force) WILL on request; issue a VIN number tag, after you show proof of ownership, (a notarized bill of sale) proof of insurance coverage and a safety inspection not older than 6 months. They will do a search of the INFORMATION you provide, to insure all is in order. THEY will then produce a 17 digit VIN tag AND a fix it to your vehicle. From that point on, no one can contest legal ownership.
if i recall correctly ,that number stamped into the subrail had something to do with the ***embly plant...that number could have been used on thousands of cars
Several years ago, at a rod run, I was looking at a very nice 28 Model A hiboy roadster. It was sitting on a duece frame. While looking at it, I noticed the serial number (model A number) stamped on the left frame rail in front of the cowl and asked the owner what the car was registered as. He looked at me, with a annoyed look, and said "as a 28 Ford roadster, of course". I thought to myself, what a rare car to have had a 32 frame available in 1928.
That is WHY .. I only buy cars with ***les and matching frame numbers ... I knew a fellow who bought a 33 Ford sedan and there was no ***le. The owner said it was lost ... just before the 33 sedan was ready for the highway ... the ***le mysteriously re-appeared ... The guy bought the Police with him and claimed " HIS CAR '" Dirty as all get out but true. There was a big court fight and the builder/owner produced a lot of recipts and got some compensation but very little. He did not have all the recipts and had traded work for work ... so he was screwed
I figured it was a part number. Either way, apparently I was the first to try in in TN. Who would have ever guessed that Bruce Lancaster was an old Chinese dude? You learn something new everyday. JH
I was told he did ... but the guy had a few 33 -34 Fords ... and when he wrote the bill of sale it said Ford body or some nonsense. The ***le he had kept had the numbers on it and the frame had the numbers so ... Have you ever been to court ?? How would you like your problems decided by 12 people who know nothing about old cars and were not smart enough to get out of jury duty ... ?? I myself consider Jury Duty just that ... a duty of being a citizen of the USA ... But most folks do not ...
This is why I will be cutting and removing the chunk of steel with the VIN # on my original frame and welding it into my new frame.
Way funny! I personally know a fella who bought a 32 3-window without a ***le. He has a storage facility and began the process to legally obtain his own ***le on the "abandoned" car. Until they ran the numbers and found that another fibergl*** 32 3-window was running around the state with those exact same numbers.
I was once told a guy in California who went to the "Auto Club" to do his DMV paper-work! He said it was easy to get his hot-rod some paper work! This may help you if your in California! Good luck
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