Back in the day The (suicide) comes from the fact that the frontend could actually fold up underneath the car, In terms its suicidle, Ive never heard of this ever happening I might have left out a few details though. I myself like the way they ride
Some run with the tie rod in front of the axle, so if your running low to the ground, and you happen to hit somthing at speed the tires will collapse to an inward position, there for, saying its suicide to run that style front end.. Thats the story I got from an old timer. Maybe someone else has a story/theory on this???
Here's a few more of this car. It was at Starbird's show in Wichita. And here's another car from the same show. These are available larger at my website. Starbird show album 2.
WOW.. Love the wide 5 treatment...whats the rear-end hanging on there with looks interesting, got any pics of the rear?
Has anyone here run the suicide axle setup with Quarter Elliptical springs (kinda half leaves going fore and aft)?
I would like to kind of, "soil sample" the suicide theories, or add to them. I do see the front bar take to the sanding disc (street) a little too hard, stay in place on the road for that split second; cause a few inches of front end alignment in the (whatever is the lowest point) is now in a huge or an ever so slight bent, 'V' to the main part. What happens next is the front wheel(s), depends on which side could take the crystal hit to the weakest link and maybe (speaking in theory, mind you), a wheel will stay put to steer out of it, or both wheels buckle to the opposite, 'V' and there is your attempt to steer for a bump to the ground and no steer or what is left is now heading for a ditch, brick wall, house, electric pole, etc. Next theory, would be the stress crack to the stronger drill holed front ends (see, mrpontiac's pic's > page 4), as in aged and riding today. I've never heard front ends of old original parts (even modified - pg 4) busting on their own, meaning, any stress cracks you are driving today are suicidal now? Are these front ends time bombs? In theory, or what the hamb's know that you or I do not know about old front ends that do not hit anything or bottom out that are holding their, in theory, their crystal integrity of strength? I would not hesitate to use a surface rusted original, but I might pass on the one sunk in the mud giving iron particles back to where it came from...Back in the ground? Pass thanks! I will use the newer look of the rolled tube with the machine bends at the ends to weld the spindles, etc. from there on out. Front end wobbles, (in theory). What happens when you take that blown flat head and squirt that down the 1320? I do not see old hot rods of the day (why back when to now) flipping over because of any front end wobble at speed. In theory, I would match the dragster front ends and would have no fear of driving a blown flatty in a, "Coupe" with an NHRA spec front end and take my chances. That is about all the theory I can think of for now... If it made any sense, theory wise.
My understanding of the term "suicide front end" is that the only thing keeping the front of the frame off the ground is the spring. So, if the spring, (or perch, or shackle) brakes at speed; instant somersault....gulp! In a conventional set up the frame will fall on the axle and you can maintain control of the car. Suicide front ends look awesome on some cars but you need to have absolute confidence in your welding ability and use a new spring, shackles etc. As for running the tie rod in front of the axle in most cases that will have an adverse affect on your steering geometry, (for more on that search ackerman). Just my $.02.
RIGHT! what he said...This is all true...Any thing can be safe as well as a hazard, hell in the past 5 years, I had a god for sakin' PT Cruiser bust a rubber front brake line for no apperent reason, My newest Chrysler(why must I keep buying this brand, no offense to the MOPAR heads out there)Jeep Un-Limited decides it wants to just stall oh lets say on the highspeed lane, and in other areas of not so great timing,and the rear diff came from the factory over full leaking every where. All of course they fixed free of charge, how nice of them right. But yes these can be dangerous as well as having your buddy with a buzz box thinking he's a welder and building your frame for your latest field find.....Just becareful...... P.S.A. 120269
Maybe someone can chime in here to clarify as follows: 1.) Unless you could have the tie rod and the frame/spring assembly occupy the same space at the same time (which is impossible) how can you have a true suicide front end without the tie rod up front? 2.) What are the facts of why a tie rod up front having (or not) an adverse affect on the geometry. Maybe I'm missing something here but from a purely engineering standpoint, I don't see the diff. 3.) Maybe in the case of an accident it could be a little more of a problem to locate the tie rod ahead of the axle, but couldn't you make the same argument about many other accepted as "safe" hot rod modifications? We all want to built safe projects, but to resonable level. We all know that items such as no air bags, no antilock brakes, no crush zones, no concern for modern impact standards, etc. make hot rods in theory more dangerous than modern vehicles, but IMO this doesn't make suicide front ends (even with tie rods up front) more dangerous than most other collector cars. I guarantee my hot rod Model A will be a hell of a lot safer than it was when Henry rolled it off the line back in '29. Any comments on this guys? I also agree that this thread turned out to be great!
I'm running my wavy tube Ply/Dodge axle and it came factory with the tie rod up front, very curious about this.Why will this mess with the geometry.Just curious, or are you talking about other style/brands???
Oh and I just got my Rod and Custom in the mail today and it has a great tech article in it about setting up front ends... well worth the read...
in a turn you want the "inside" front wheel to turn more sharply than the "outside" front wheel. with the tierod behind the axle that works out pretty well. it's pretty hard with it in front. technically it's possible to get the ackerman correct with the tie rod in front, but you would have to be running pretty severely offset wheels with the tierod connection point way wider than is reasonably possible. the ideal setup (which the factories accomplished) has a straight line going from the center of the kingpin through the tierod connection point and then through the center of the rear axle. this results in the correct wheel geometry in a turn. while travelling in a straight line it doesn't matter. picture yourself in a helicopter hovering over a car turning in a constant circle. the inside front wheel is travelling through a circle of a shorter radius/diameter than the outside front wheel; thus needing to turn a tad sharper than the outside wheel. with the tierod in front of the axle with the normal angle on the steering arms the outside wheel will be turning sharper than the inside wheel; thus one or both of the front wheels will have to slide through the corner. not a particularly wise or safe situation.
1. The tie rod and spring assembly don't have to occupy the same space unless of course you're using a dropped axle. 2. It's all about the ackerman angle. Check out this link. It explains it in quite nice detail: http://www.nationaltbucketalliance.com/tech_info/chassis/ackerman/Ackerman.asp
I have enjoyed this thread, And I understand about doing a search. A suicide front - end is just that one and all. I am a 60 yr old Fng seen 100 of them. You see I am a 'Visual Learner' and I still like to learn
That article really cleared up a few mysteries. The pictures are well done and make all the difference to a knucklehead like me. - thanks for posting! Joe
Good explanation Atch...... Moonglow.....I've always thought of a suicide front just meaning that the axle was in front of the frame instead of under it...therefore..... 1.)..... You can have a suicide front with a rear tierod. All depends on the setup....If you have a spring over axle, the tierod could go right under the perch....it really depends on how low or 'tall' the perch is and how far 'out' the axle is from the frame....may different ways to accomplish the same thing.....some better than others.....
1.) Mine in particular would be a real problem (close to impossible) to run the tie rod behind the axle. 2.) Makes perfect sense now. Thanks so much for the link's. Great information and I now know how to correct it and keep my tie rod up front! Thanks again
The Ackerman url got me thinking. I know I can take a tape measure and line up the tire centers to the straight to the steering wheel. Say I drop the tape measure, use 2 laser beams, sight the front wheel full lock; take that measurement, (x = rear axle, y = front wheel spindle center); full lock the other way; split the difference at the lines crossing; but then, my rear axle has to be square in the frame for me to track the front wheel to the rear axle lock to lock average. My frame/body might drive 1/16" off sideways looking at it coming at you or driving away from you. My question is: Will this work for alignment and is the laser a closer frame assembly position of parts, or how to do you shift the 1/16'' out of the spring buckles? Cut the buckle and move it, or elongate the hole and push fore or aft (the 1/16th) to the frame to rear axle? Say after I lay down my tape (even double checking the triple checking), and I still screw up by a 1/16"... What is the fix??? TY
Yes, that's right. I've never seen it done before, but I think it'll work pretty well. I believe I'll need a panhard bar up front to control the side to side movement too.
Not only is this a topic that most people enjoy if they're in the middle of building right now, but it is also a topic that should always be open for renewal to remind us that this is a forum that is primarily people building and driving traditional hot rods. In my opinion you could beat this subject to death and I would still enjoy seeing the posts of what people are building right now or in the past... On that note... here's a couple pics related to how I'm suiciding my front end with split bones and a dropped axle. Maybe it will help someone. You won't find these pictures in any "suicide" searched thread.... Still need to make the brackets for the bones to mate with the spring shackles, but you can get an idea of what I'm going for at least. Help this helps someone. If you guys out there have built something new since the last time a "suicide front end" thread has been updated or bumped, please post. This is a great topic as are any other build topics. Cheers! Scooter
Great thread, I'm not wanting to Hijack the thread but would like to add to it with a few questions of my own along the same topic. I've been researching the same info for my planned "rescue" of a ummm.... <Ducks & Whispers> "ratrod" . I am currently working towards my goal of a nice clean finished hotrod. I scored a real nice 33 - 34 ford I beam (w/ 2" bosses) and picked up some 3" O.D. thick wall D.O.M for the crossmember. I do have a question about mounting the spring perch. I've seen some mounted with the spring under the perch (what I would call rightside up). And some with the spring mounted ontop of the perch (upside down). I'm assuming by doing so, there gaining a bit of Drop? Is there any other diffrences in the way it's mounted? Using an unmodified spring about how much drop is gained? Also, when shopping for the correct length spring, what's the best way of finding out the needed length. I used speedways version and come up a bit short. My beam is 36.5" from hole to hole, speedway said to subrtact 4.5 for the spring length. Well that leaves me at 32". The closest spring they have is 31" Eye to eye Posie. The Mr. roadster spring is 31 1/4". Am I missing something or am I going to have to find another supplier for this front spring? Thanks all, 25Thobbyist
This is how im doing mine also, don't have a welder at the time so i just bolted the spring holder seems to be strong. Still looking for a body for my frame im building. I want an old Ford probably a 32 coop.
Scooter, you are my hero! You post great pictures of what you build and I enjoy seeing your car progress. Back to the rest of the thread...... Nearly everyone, comes here to learn and share. If we never repeated a topic, we would never see the innovation that comes when new minds tackle a problem. Scooter has offered clever solutions and design ideas as has Littleman with DeathsDoorStep and many other builders. I couldn't have done a search to find all those builds with a general reference, and I wouldn't want people to keep reviving posts that were years old, just to keep everything in one place. Besides, tastes change. What looked perfect a few years ago, might not look so good to us today. Even our 'traditional' tastes morph a bit as time goes by. I for one want the new guy or girl to ask their questions. Even if you argue that they are being lazy, it makes me think about what they are asking, and I invariably learn something. Not all of us are computer savvy, some just want to build cars. So I say, let's encourage the car building instead of discouraging the questions. Ask away, ignore the people who bitch, and if I aleady answered the question before, I can always cut and paste my earlier response. If I don't like it, I can just ignore the post and move on, instead of cursing out someone over the Internet. Just because you have been around a long time, doesn't give you license to be so damn mean. Maybe if you go away for a while, you'll come back and actually appreciate what you've missed. BTW, I'm not saying no one ever comes here just looking for trouble. Occasionaly, a less than polite response is more than appropriate. However, this thread started with a harmless question from someone trying to learn a little more about what we all love to do.
I always believed it was called a 'suicide' front end because the ends of the frame were behind the axle instead of going over the top of it. So if the spring or any other component breaks on this sort of front end, the frame will drop straight onto the road, and if it digs into the tar, the car will go end over end. There were some pics here recently of a survivor car which actually had skid plates under the front of the chassis to prevent the frame digging into the tar if the front end broke. Cheers, Glen.
The Jalopy Journal
