Has anybody used Evercoat Metal to Metal filler? I picked some up to finish my fenders patch but I was curious if anybody has had any experience with it or knows of any ways that I shouldn't be using it?
The guys I know who use it, use it as a crutch, so they think they don't have to weld up patches solid. They are wrong. Personally, I don't like it. It is very hard to sand, and cures very hard...brittle even. That cfan cause cracking problems on panels that flex a bit. If you do your metal work correctly, you don't need it.
About the only time I use it is over a welded seam,like where the weld a roof on to a quater from the factory.To date I have never had a problem with it.It is hard to sand,and I hate that about it,but it is ground up metal for peats sake.....lol.I never finish with it,I usualy rough it in with metal to metal,and go over top of it with my regular filler.I hope that helps..... EVIL
I dont like it. Often, it won't cure, just stays soft and I have a mess to clean up. I've been told it has a very short shelf life, but I've had new cans not cure.
Haha, I have a can that I opened, used it once in a small area, hated it, and its been sitting for at least 2 years now. I guess I'll give it to someone I dont like!
I use it the same way, over weld seams once ground. Never had a problem with it, its just a lot more picky to its mix than regular filler...thats when you get the soft mess. I love it.
I used a product years ago called Alumi-lead. It used aluminium particles in it's base. A liquid/peroxide based hardener came with it, and was very sensitive to the amount used. If you weren't careful it would either not cure or get too brittle. One of the benefits was it didn't shrink as much as most of the fillers available at the time. Now, current fillers are much improved, so I don't see an advantage using it.
Like was said: use it as you would lead, for roof seams, etc; finish with regular filler. Good stuff if mixed right.
Use it sparingly under regular filler... Sticks great to bare metal, not much shrinkage, and little harder to sand.
The "Gospel" from chopolds. Right ON the money!! Now here's why- Metal to metal is basically aluminum powder mixed with fiberglass resin. Aluma-lead was very similar, also. Aluminum transfers heat and cold very rapidly. The hardner for metal to metal is usually liquid MEKP which most of us don't use very often. (Liquid hardner does not have the filler/color that creme hardner has and is more concentrated, so they cannot be interchanged volume per volume.) That makes it difficult to mix in thoutoughly and extremely hard to see with no color change like with creme hardner. This makes it likely to get areas that are over catalized and areas that are under catalized or NOT catalyzed. Now the temperature factor will come into play. If it's hot outside or on the panel, the aluminum will transfer the heat of the product and the hardner reaction and usually accelerate it which makes it brittle, even more than the product is normally. Extreme over curing will make the resin spongy, sometimes. If it's cold, the opposite happens. It can even stop the curing process, usually at the surface of the metal, and if it does cure, it probably cures from the outside in which can trap some gasses that will wreck your repair later. All in all, even experienced "mud-slingers" can screw up this product. Like the Reverend chopolds said, "If you do your metal work correctly, you don't need it." Now if you feel the need to seal a seam, marine epoxy will work even better, After it cures, rough cut it with a grinder or coarse paper and apply a good quality body filler. It's easier to mix, more flexible, and good marine grade product is made to work under water. You can buy smaller quantities with longer shelf life and usually save a few bucks.. (Just a suggestion.) overspray
Yeah but marine grade products are designed for fiberglass usually no? So underwater or not, it would be apples and oranges?
I usualy asume that people are using the product correctly.Most any product used wrong will fail. I agree that if you do the metal work "correctly", you should not need it,but if you can do metal work so perfect that you do not need filler,you could probably quit your regular job and install parts for a living. JMO
All these aluminum based fillers are shit. One should never use them for any reason... the failure rate- is well known-so why would you want to redo your body repairs for no good reason.....
Well thank you guys, for sure. Im pretty sure that I did the patch the correct way. Much better work than the shop I paid to do it in the first place anyway. I cut the rust ALL the way out, and then made a patch that fit. Fully spot welded it until it was a solid weld, then ground down the welds. But because like it was said earlier in the thread, Im not good enough at this yet to have my patch work be finished, paint ready smooth in bare metal, I need filler. Thats where Im at now, and a guy at my local paint shop suggested the product. So again, thank you guys.
Thanks, some of those are older pics, with the iron-head 451 street engine. It now has the 511 Indy head race engine in it that's in my sig.
Dont worry dude,there are probably 100 or so people in the world that install patch pannels so good that they dont need filler.I bet they are all on this site and will drop by to tell you about itSounds like you are headed in the right direction.Good luck with your project! EVIL
Just to clarify my post...when I say to do metal work correctly, I don't necessarily mean 'metal finishing' it to perfection, with no filler. I'm not a perfectionist in that, not good enough yet. I mean cutting the rust completely out, having a patch panel that is made of good steel (not flashing, chicken wire, or tin foil!) and is welded in solid, not tacked, not stitched. It is also VERY important to seal up the backside of the welded area, in case there are tiny pinholes in the weld where water may get in, and to prevent further rusting. I usually POR-15, but any rust preventative will work. I also try to undercoat over the POR as an extra precaution. If you get water seeping in from the backside of the repair, you WILL have problems! I don't care if you use bondo, fiberglass, Duraglass, Allmetal, or ANY waterproof body filler. Think about it...it's the METAL that rusts , and pushes the filler away from the panel..that's why it bubbles up. Doesn't matter if the filler is water proof or not! Unless you keep the moisture away from the metal, by sealing it up, it will rust and the filler fails. Except maybe 'lead', as it bonds to the steel, effectively sealing it up for a longer time. I've seen lead still in the right shape while the steel around it is gone.
I have used All Metal and it's a good Product-US Chemical makes it (and by the way, they make the cream Hardeners for Evercoat Rage and such)-I had a detailed discussion with their head Chemist, and I came away very impressed-he knows his stuff and is a Car guy. As for problems between the Metal and Bondo, I simply Epoxy Prime-end of problem, and the Chemist from US Chemical even suggested using Epoxy under the All Metal-I have never experienced a failure, and even my best friend who runs a Powder Coating business uses it under Powder Coating so it can't be all bad-his Shop has a top notch reputation. I use it under Rage Gold and an experienced Body Man who did restorations turned me on to it. I think it's all Old Wive's tails-if it's hard to sand, and you can drill and tap it, it must be too hard-
I am a proponent of Aluma-lead. It was used on my car in areas requiring filler and after 7 years still no cracks, no shrinkage, no shadow lines in the paint. I also used it on fiberglass to create small flares etc. and it works very well there also.
ALL_METAL IS JUNK!!!! I have used it a bunch of times with very little success. Like what was mentioned above you have to be dead nuts with the hardener mixture and you still can get under and over catalized spots. For patch panels, and over weld areas I use a product made by U-Pol. It is called Fiberall. It is basically long strand fiberglass and resin, has a cream hardner and is fairly easy to work with. It adds strength (Long fiberglass strands) and is supposed to be water proof. just my $.02
All-Metal is total shit, if anything it accelerates rusting, but I do live in the humid jungles of Florida. Also, it is not a good idea to use old filing cabinets to make patch panels out of. They may weld nice and look and feel like regular body steel they're clearly not. Be not cheap like Nads, failure will follow you. Best of luck.
suggestions for filler to smooth welds on parts that will be powdercoated? someone told me use JB weld (not the quick weld) and the powdercoater said dont use it because it'll start to breakdown and cause fisheye in the powdercoat.
We do ALOT of powder coating at work and have found no filler that suits the purpose. Let me know if you find one.
Well, yes, apples to apples in the sense that fiberglass is based on polyester resin which is also the base for Metal to Metal, All metal, and almost all body fillers. I was referring to marine grade 2 part epoxy which is made to stick to a lot of materials and surfaces including steel, aluminum, and fiberglass. It is waterproof and makes a good foundation seal for a seam or weld under polyester resin based products. Polyester resin based products will more readily absorb moisture. My point was, that marine grade epoxy is probably easier to use and get good results with, if you are using the Metal to Metal type products as a foundation layer under regular body filler. I sometimes use it as a protective waterproof coating on the backside of my welded in patch panels also, if it is practical and I have access to properly prep the area. Body filler sticks to cured epoxy filler/adhesive, steel, aluminum, and fiberglass. It does so by mechanical adhesion, just like epoxy, so the surface needs to be clean and sanded for either type of product. overspray
I was surprised to hear this about All-Metal, I have known of guys using it to re-shape the bottoms of high-performance outboard racing motors.
Sounds to me like there's a lot of people who don't know how to properly use a product, and then decide that it's crap. That's like the ricer kids that don't put oil in their cars and then seize their motors... only to be followed by "This car is a piece of crap." Gimme a break. Metal based fillers, when used properly and mixed correctly, are good. You just need to use your head and practice on some scrap panels to get the mixture right and learn how to do it.
Ok, need some expert advice. Here is a factory joint on my '68 Porsche 912. This was full of lead. I removed the lead to make proper repairs. Still more work to be done. What do you you recommend I fill this with, other than more lead? A lot of guys have poo pooed the Metal to Metal stuff. As you can see, it is rather large, but that is how the factory did it. Yes it should have been done better, but it was not. So what is the best way finish this for filler and paint? Thanks for the advice.
I used metal to metal by evercoat many times early 90s on my old cars to close up joints. Older man who showed me this stuff restored classic euro cars would use it on areas just like this and rest of the car. They wouldnt use bondo on euro stuff for some reason. There also kitty hair that some other shops used back then. Still the best option is going back with traditional lead. Also used Glasurit paint products
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