Cross steering vs Traditional steering - the debate rages!

Well here it is - a debate which has raged for years - a vega steering box style cross steering vs the traditional steering setup as done by Mr Tardel & Mr Bishop in their book. Lets set some ***umptions here start with a Model A frame, 2" to 4" drop axle, 37 to 41 spindles, and a split wishbone setup. Let the debate begin!

 

The way I see it is that I've never seen an F-1 or F-100 in a junkyard but I've seen quite a few '41-'48 Fords with cross-steering, so cross steering wins.

 

Who's saying cross steering isn't traditional?

 

I've done it both ways, and I believe it's up to the car builder and the car of choice, style, looks, flavor....
As long as the drag link is the same length as the hair-pins, and the longer the better...they work just fine.
Glenn

 

BTTT

 

Pet peeeeve numero uno right here!

Traditional steering does not cause bump steer. Poorly set up traditional steering does. Every single solitary freakin time I park the coupe at a show somebody comes up and says something to the effect of "Yeah that set up looks cool, but you've gotta hate the bump steer". I have ZERO bump steer, nada, nuthin. She goes down the road straight as an arrow. Other people I meet explain to me that my steering is set up wrong. The drag link should be parallel to the radius rod. That is 100% total and absolute ****. As someone mentioned, that would work fine if the drag link and radius rods were the same length. However, if they arent your screwed. The correct way to set it up is such that an imaginary line drawn through the drag link p***es through the point where the radius rod pivots on the frame. I'll shut up now.

BTW here's the steering on my latest ride

 

I think Crease nailed it.

 

I want to know why it's always Vega as the first steering box people look at?, Is it an "OLD SKOOL" thing to replicate something thats been used for years or am I just too cheap to pay $300 for a rebuilt Vega unit when a 70s Nova manual box works and was FREE? (Hey Vegas werent made in the 50's what did they use? huh?)



Robs Chevy TUB

OH and the guy that sold me the beam said cross steering would only work with a Vega box.. NOT!

I'm with AHotrod.. quote "I've done it both ways, and I believe it's up to the car builder and the car of choice, style, looks, flavor...."

and YES Crease also nailed it..

Rob

 

Hey Rob Vega boxes were first used because they were small, light, fairly available and worked reasonably well. They still do and as most fendered cars have cross steering they remain the primary choice. Lots of old boxes will work fine but they have to be winkled out of junkyards or swaps, are frequently heavily worn, and a lot of them are too big and clunky to use in the tight confines of an early car's frame as Grimlok pointed out. A new tight unworn repop box can be a pretty attractive alternative to something out of the 'yard. Vega boxes will work just fine in a side steer app but they have to be mounted on top of the frame so using them with fenders is pretty much out. You don't often see them used as a side steer box but it's more trad rod convention than anything inherent in their operation that they aren't used more.

 

I was looking at a 40 Merc box which is the same as the 40 Ford box as a cross steer set up in my AV8. It keeps it all Ford - imagine that!

 

**** Smiths roadster which is on display at the Henry Ford Meuseum uses a 40' steering box and wheel. **** drove the 331 hemi powered car as his only car for decades. Probably worked OK.

 

When I went to hang out at Kulturepimp's place down in Indy, I couldn't look at his truck enough. One of the many cool features was the fact that he used a VW van (or bus, if you will) steering box. It's 'hidden' inside the cowl and a long rod runs down to the front end.

He says it works great, and I kinda dig the 'stealth' look...not having some nappy looking steering box out there stuck to the frame rails!

 

Anyone have pics of a 40 box used in a cross steering setup.
Where do yo mount it in the frame rails?
SD

 

**** Smiths is mounted about where the stock deuce box was mounted. The drag link angles forword but works just fine.I'm going to use the same design in my next car. Found a great 40' box and want to use the wheel,shifter and dash.

 

there was a vw box in mom's 28 when we bought it in 1980...and it's still there and it's driven alot...had to adjust it a while ago...there is a bit of play in the wheel..but other than that it has been great

 

This is a survivor from the 50's with a 39 steering box and column. Complete from banjo to pitman arm. It mounts just like a 35-48. The drag link isn't parallel with the tie rod when looking down from above, but I don't see how that would be a problem.

 

This debate would be a lot more raging if Crease wasn't so right on.

His new cowl-mounted steering looks pretty radical. Can we see some more pics?

 

I have a cross steering set-up in my 4D,
and a traditional set up in my deuce.
Does that make me a "cross traditionalist"?

Ford used cross steer beginning in '35 so
all rides after that are not traditional? Yeah that ends the debate rage over what is and is not a
tradional built car right? Yeah right.
The use of the traditional word should die a quick death!

The last true Hotrod was a 34!

Oh, and both designs do work well if they're
set-up correctly.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"OPOSSUM BENDERS"
Central Missouri chapter

 

Thanks Darwin.. great post.., Funny part about this WHOLE forum is.. "look what I picked up TODAY !"





This is a 70s Nova manual steering box, My new DOM tubing rods just picked up today from the machinist and all new rod-ends, The double unit is early JEEP, Commonly used and "reverse-tapered" in cross steering setups..

Yeah a little bigger than a Vega, But man you should have seen the power steering unit... H U G E !!!!

For more on my Nova box see this page of all the pictures..

Its on page 128 and a few in-between

http://www.ammoman.com/CHEVY

PS: Long steering rod is 50-1/2" O.C. and the drag link is 32" O.C

Rob

 

Rob in NH,
I like your building style. Spent a while browsing your website, Great stuff! I like to build for the long run myself too, heavy duty, good 'n strong.
Here's a pic of the front axle I was originally using on my car. Looks kind of like yours. I swapped it for a tube axle eventually, as the I beam was far too wide for my tiny vehicle. I spent days drilling and t******* it down to lose a little weight, so I shall keep it for another project.
Cheers, Paul B

 

[ QUOTE ]
Rob in NH,
I like your building style. Spent a while browsing your website, Great stuff! I like to build for the long run myself too, heavy duty, good 'n strong.
Here's a pic of the front axle I was originally using on my car. Looks kind of like yours. I swapped it for a tube axle eventually, as the I beam was far too wide for my tiny vehicle. I spent days drilling and t******* it down to lose a little weight, so I shall keep it for another project.
Cheers, Paul B

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks!

Hey.. that transverse mounted spring on semi-elliptical pads of an I-beam design was my first idea!, Then was to do a spring-behind off the plates.. But it still was not low enough..

Thought of Z-ing the frame.., But the leafs would have STILL held it too high for all that work involved... So not worth it..

Then by accident I hit an air-spring site looking at how the teenagers drop thier bling bling H___da's and decided to order a pair to play with.. The rest is HISTORY

"I like to build for the long run myself too, heavy duty, good 'n strong."

Dont get me wrong I like all 30's cars from Fords to Chevy to Plymouth.. (almost bought one yesterday), But the floor designs are scary, Seen neighbor Rick's A and the frame is 2 tubes in a rectangle, His floors are a 16ga rail up each side and a sheet of 18ga tin with beads rolled in to stop barrel noises, Mine must be real overkill with the frame widened at the rockers and about 200' feet of 1" tubing and a sheet of 3/16ths plate (cut in strips everywhere) under what will be the floors, Rick said its "OVERKILL", I replied.. "Thats JUST what I wanted to hear" hahaha

I would rather take a HIT in my car from the side then in his!, at least I will SURVIVE!

"I spent days drilling and t******* it down to lose a little weight, so I shall keep it for another project"

Save ALL beams, Eventually they can be something.. say a trailer behind the rod maybe?, or like you said another project.., That one looks really COOL what is is from?

OH and being over the pond you guys have some STUFF that we here in the States will NEVER see!, You probably know of 3 Cars with beams that we have never even heard of..., Giving you more choices over US thats for sure...

Some people build cars from cars, I build them around two things.. an I-beam or a firewall...

then go from there with other designs as the possibilities are ENDLESS!!!..

Rob

 

Checking out the site and it looks good.
Are you going to use rocker panels?
If not,I might be interested in the one good one you have.
Looks like there was about as much left of your Chevy as the 1930 Buick I found.
Looking good! Keep at it,
Stevie G

 

A '40 steering box is very close to a Vega box in size -- the body is smaller, but the housing and shaft that the pitman arm attaches to is longer.

It ends up mounting in about the same place as a Vega box. Works great for a nailhead, as the motormount is ahead of the box. If you tried it with a small-block though, you might find that the pitman arm would be located too low --

I know one guy who shortened the housing and shaft two inches to solve that problem. He reports that the rebuilt '40 box works great.

Steve.

 

I'm liking a roadster my friend is building - on paper so far - but there are a whole lot of parts collected for it.

No tie rod will be installed.
It has two fore & aft drag links instead.

 

Don't want to sound like a big retard, but what is the difference between cross and traditional steering?


he who asks a question is a fool for 5 minutes,
he who doesn't is a fool forever, right?...

right?

 

Wait, i think i answered my own question, cross streering has a tie rod and the drag link attaches to that, and traditional has 2 drag links. is that right?

 

[ QUOTE ]
Wait, i think i answered my own question, cross streering has a tie rod and the drag link attaches to that, and traditional has 2 drag links. is that right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I may have confused you.

Cross steering typically uses a Vega box mounted inside the frame in most cases and the single drag link runs transversely.

Traditional steering uses a - most times - Ford box mounted on top of or inside the frame or inside the cowl and the single drag link runs longitudinally.

I should have explained further that the two tie-rods bit is uncommon in hot rods, but used on dirt track cars in years past.
The steering box in these cars has a double pitman arm and the box is center mounted inside the cowl since it's usually set up in a single seat car.
They can be made to work in a two seater like a typical roadster. The box is mounted inside the cowl centered on the drivers seat. The left pitman arm hangs outside the cowl in the proper location for the left side fore and aft drag link. The right pitman shaft gets an extension so the right pitman arm can hang outside the cowl in the proper location for the right side fore and aft drag link.
One drag link pulls and the other pushes therefore no tie rod required.

What can be confusing in all this is side steer boxes can be used for trad steering and trad boxes - some of them - can be set up for cross steering.
Some setups of either style work ok and others are downright ugly.

Here's a pic of a Vega side steer set up for trad steering.
It looks and works good, but you're limited to an inline engine from what I can see.
As you can see, the pitman is not installed.

 

ok, I think I got it, Thanks!