Could this be what blew up my engine? :)

So I had my engine built this spring. A bored/stroked 506ci Ford 429, steal crank/rods, forged pistons, .589/.615 solid lifter flat tappet cam, harland sharp roller rockers, stainless valves, race valve job, dual quads, headers, mag, etc etc...all the best. It was a kick ass motor, made probably around 600hp. About a month and a half into driving it, it started sounding milder and milder and making strange noises in the valve train. Some rockers were REALLY loose so I tightened them up and thought nothing of it (the lock screws were tight though...). Just this past month I'm driving down the road and out of the blue I spin a rod bearing. After taking apart the mill we found the push rods were defective and not hardened properly. They had wore down causing my rockers to be flopping all over the place. Could this have led to the spun bearing? Whats your thoughts? I dont want to pay for this again if it was definetly caused by a defective part I didn't supply. Thanks,
-Dean

 

My guess is yes,

 

No doubt! The metal that came off the push rods contaminated everything. Killed the bearings............OLDBEET

 

You've got a pretty good attitude for a guy that blew up a high-dollar motor with not a lot of run time.

Hey - it's a hot rod!

The problems might be related. The oil pump screen should keep out any bigger chunks, but a lot of fine steel shavings in the oil will wipe out bearings quick.

How's the oil look that came out of it? Drain it all and let it sit in a pan with a magnet overnight to get an idea of how much metal was in there. Sorry about the engine man.

 

You really do have a positive attitude, I'll second that.

You said you "spun" a rod bearing.
Since you probably didn't put the motor together......I'm guessing here.......
did you pull everything down and mic the crank and the other bearings/journals. Did is spin the bearing in the rod and what did the bearing look like compared to the other rod bearings.
If you actually spun the bearing it would be and usually is pretty difficult to spin a bearing unless that one bearing was not getting any oil or the clearances were very tight. Maybe some of the metal filings plugged the oil galley and you weren't getting oil to that particular bearing.
But to say just because you had loose pushrods and they were wearing away causing very small metal flakes to go through the motor.........................that is a l-o-n-g stretch. Usually "spun" bearings are caused from extreme heat which is usually lack of lubricant or the clearances were way off.
Give us some more detail or pictures.

IMHO

 

I'm with A Chopped Coupe on this one.
Bob

 

haha I was quite pissed when it initially happened but I've cooled off since. I had the engine built, and by a shop with a great reputation. The thing is this motor cost me a shit load to build in the first place, and now I'm getting charged 2 grand to fix it! Unfortunately I did not dissasemble the mill and haven't seen any of the pieces yet. I do know though that the push rods were worn down so bad the rockers were literally bouncing off the valves instead of opening them up, thats how short they were. The crank and one connecting rod are trash. I just think it seems peculiar that a serious race motor like this would fail, only after running a defective valve train. It always ran decent temp and I never tached it up hard. Where did the all metal go? I'll get more details tomorrow. Thanks,
-Dean

 

check the oil passages and see if they are plugged. you usually spin bearings due to underlubrication, friction, and heat. usually a starved journal or prolonged high RPMs can cause fatigue on the bearing and cause it to cut loose. but the rocker and pushrod problem is definately in need of some consideration, could have caused a chain reaction somewhere somehow but its unlikely that that is the direct problem.

 

Cut open the oil filter, it will tell the tale.

 

just because the pushrods failed, doesn't mean they were defective. you didn't say what brand they were, custom made? i'm sure with that large cam you are running some pretty high valvespring pressure. perhaps you have"stock" type pushrods? are you sure the radius of the pushrods matched the lifters and rockers? like said above, the bearing is likely a lube problem, could the same lube problem have contributed to the top end failure?

 

i am betting the engine builder put the wrong push rods in the engine...if so its his dime to fix his mistake.

 

you had someone build you a engine, the engine went bad, and they are charging you to fix it?

 

I worked at a H-D shop for 9 years and I have to say that as far as HP motors go I've near seen it all. If the shop can't show you the reason that it is not their fault then they should foot the bill, but (and I don't mean to piss any one off) 9 times out of ten the motors that came back blown up were the fault of the owner of the bike. Too much right hand, burnouts, or running a brand new motor at 90 mph+ for extended periods. Not to mention some of the stupid shit like "I thought it was running rich so I dropped 3 jet sizes" go figure it burned a piston. All I'm sayin' is there is always two sides to a story. Sorry to hear about your motor and I hope that it all works out.

 

I am also. Its one of those catch 22 things about who is at fault tho. Race motors are useally not warrinty. The Harley shops down here dont warrinty jack.

 

Even if it is a defective push rod - good luck getting the push rod company to make good on it. I've been there and tried that with ARP

 

I would be suspect of the oil supply to the pushrods causing the abnormal wear, and the bearing to fail. Is your pickup enough off of the pan to allow good flow? Did you use an oil filter block off? Relocate? Restrictors? Which bearing spun? #1?

 

Well, did it spin the bearing, or just tear it up?

 

Bad pushrods or bad cam?

 

Pushrods? Don't think so. My bet is that the cam/lifters were not broken in properly and / or the wrong oil was used. The cam break in on a flat tappet cam is the most important thing since they stopped putting enough ZDDP in the oil. If you didn't use Rotella or Delo or some other additive to give you a high ZDDP content during break in, my bet is on the lobes going away and taking the lifters with them. A by product of this is that some of the pushrods could get bent will all the extra clearance that would happen. I see people fire a fresh engine and let it idle, all standing around smiling listening to the lope and meanwhile wipping the cam out. Your builder should have pointed this out, but then maybe they didn't know either...............

 

I agree with Old Beet . The contaminated oil was possibly the cause along with other contributing factors , first being the rockers were loose so you just tightened them down ?? --with solids , they have to be adjusted not tightened and when you found the locks still tight on the poly locks , yet the rockers loose , THAT is when you should have contacted the enging builder you may have had at least a little sympathy then . If it was a mistake or faulty push rods , they "may " have helped out somewhat , but after you "tightened" them and then drove on that is your own fault. They have nothing to go on but the fact that they can see the valvetrain was messed with so have no reason to think it was anyone's fault but your own. I will get bashed for this I know , but if you didn't build it , there is a very good chance you have no business "working" on it . And before the bashing yes I build all my engines and I also understand not everyone has the tools and means to build an engine. I just believe you really messed up by tightening the rockers and not taking it by the engine builder (and on a trailer at that) so he could see you were trying hard NOT to trash the engine.You also didn't say if you provided the major parts list and items or if they were chosen and provided by the builder. This has a lot to do with how things turn out. If you provided the speed parts and he just assembled the engine with his expendable parts ( bearings and gasket , oil pump and such ) you don't have much to complain about, again it's on you . Yes I know there are people who build engines for others and really do some garbage work , but if they have this good a rep. then that is doubtful in this case . The spun bearing , I have no idea what you had on this for an exhaust system but if you run any bearing long enough and loose enough as from being "eaten" away by metal shavings from the pushrods , then it will give up and spin. Yes it takes a little time , but depending on how much metal we are talking about it could have happened in a matter of a few miles and it will then spin in the rod. I agree with the others that heat and the wrong tolerances will cause a bearing to spin , but so will undue wear and when you get down to it the heat and wrong tolerances cause the bearing to wear and spin anyway --so it's all the same it's just something will cause the wear and when it gets thin enough , or gauld to the shaft ( almost forgot that part ) yes they will spin.
I am sorry truly you lost the engine , or at least a lot of parts of it , but be thankful it wasn't worse you could have put a new "vent " in the block . You have only lost a rod , a crank , some cash and a little pride . It was aan expensive lesson , but I do hope you learned to do the right thing first --don't work on someone else's problems and get them to check it first --then complain if you don't get the satisfaction you need or deserve.

 

Didn't think of that angle either you are possibly much closer to what started the problem and the "loose " rockers. but I still stand by my previous post .

 

Just to add some more info, once the mill was torn down the builder did say that the cam was broken in properly, and it was running with correct timing. Rotilla oil was used as well. When I discovered the loose rockers, I contacted the builder and he just told me to tighten them back to there proper valve lash, which I did with a fealer guage. He supplied the crank, rods, cam, bearings, pushrods.....I supplied the block, heads, and intake.

 

If it's on your dime to repair your engine, get ahold of Paul at High Flow Dynamics. Quite a few of us run 385's in our boats, and I seriously doubt you're running as hard and at the rpm's we are for extended periods. There are oiling mods you can benefit from, and Paul is the 385 guru. Give him a call.

 

A lot of good thoughts about what happened to your motor, but the only person that has a clue is the one that took it apart. You say it is going to cost you $2k to repair....................what are they going to repair????? and what reason are they giving for failure?????????

I have been racing since year 2 and found out many, many years ago that assembling your own motor (as long as you have some knowledge about motors) is the best way. Thay way if something happens you only have yourself to blame. If you don't have the knowledge, then find a good machinest and good machanic...............because you will need both.

This is not criticism and don't take it the wrong way...............when the motor goes out of tune quickly there is usually a reason and especially in a race motor. Adjusting the rockers when the screws were still tight is like cutting off your finger because the nail is too long. If you would have had hydraulics I could have understood, but with solids...............the only time you adjust them down is when they become so loud you can't stand the noise any longer.

I know you spent a lot of money putting the motor together and don't want this happen again so for the next time........................if something goes out of tune........................take it to someone whom you trust and can tell you what is wrong and how he is going to solve the issue. And............most important (if you can) watch what he is doing to solve the problem and next time you will have a better idea of what your motor is trying to tell you......because believe it or not..............motors can talk to you if you listen hard enough.

It would be interesting to hear what the shop said was the cause of failure in the motor.

Oh...............one last question. How was the motor broken-in. Was it done on the car/chassis dyno/engine dyno, or did you break-it-in driving it the first time.

Good luck and let us know.

IMHO

 

I had a BBC I put together a few years ago that really gave me fits. When I first started it it wasnt oiling to the rockers. After a bunch of calls to tech line idiots and the engine machine shop I pulled the cam lifters and pushrods. After the fact I was notified there was a bad bunch of lifters that went through production and I was lucky enough to get a set. Okay, new cam lifters and pushrods in and engine starts running crappy. Pull valve covers and the pushrod ends are destroyed and eating holes through the rockers. The pushrods werent heat treated and ended up getting sent to me. The third set of pushrods were so junky I didnt even put them in the motor. The fourth set of pushrods are Smith brothers ($) and second set of Harland Sharp rockers are still in the motor and running strong. Anyway all these problems were out of my pocket and took the better part of a summer to work out, there is alot of junk parts out there. Good luck.

 

what is a 385? this dude has a 460 Ford. just sayin'

 

A 385 is the SERIES. 429's and 460's are from the 385 engine series.

 

Thanks, I don't get out much.

 

The engine was broken in by running it at a high idle for a period of time, I cant remember exactly what we did since it was 3 or 4 months ago but it was done correctly. The cam is fine and is actually going back in. As far as a cause, he wont give me one! He's saying the dual quads weren't tuned and it was running to lean, but then he contredicted himself and said it was getting too much gas and everything was black inside. Then he said it was detonating, but the timing was good on it. So basically I have no freaking clue. I'm putting it on the dyno this time and he thinks that should give a better clue as to what went wrong, but shouldnt you really be able to tell just from taking it apart? BTW I'm getting charged $500 for a new crank, 1 rod, pushrods and misc. parts, which is a nice break, but an additional $1500 for assembly/dissasembly and then $800+ for dyno.

 

i think you had something in the oil passege in that journal of the crank. If proper breakin was performed, proper oil was used and it only happened to one bearing after s hort while it was oil starved from the beginning. was the crank he used new.