Doing some cutting today. Torch blew itself out a couple of times. Then I noticed liquid on the tip. I opened up the acetylene valve and got a spray of what I think could only be liquid acetylene out of the tip. Never seen it before but I don't think it can be good. Anyone have a clue? Pete
your acetylene tank is either bad or you laid it down on its side.There is a chemical reation that takes place inside the tank that actually gives off the acetylene gas.Its a liquid and a dessecant bag like set up,so I'm guessing one of those is bad.
It's acetone. The acetylene is dissolved in it. Otherwise the acetylene can be explosive. The acetone is stored in an absorbent, like diatomaceous earth.
it is VERY ****ING DANGEROUS!!!!! Place the cylinder in a cool ISOLATED place and telephone either the fire brigade or the gas company. The liquid is highly unstable . It is a sign that bottle was either transported or used laying on it's side both are ****ing stupid practices. Another cause is running the line pressure at higher than 15PSI. It has the potential to explode.
So, acetylene bottles should NEVER be laid on their side? I've seen quite a few laid in the trunk or bed of a Pick Up. If it's that dangerous, I'll start sticking my nose in. I know that when one falls over, You are supposed to ice it, Or put cool, damp towels on it and call the Fire Dept. Never knew you weren't supposed to lay them down (Like when you can't chain/strap them to the side of the truck bed). Thanks for bringing up the max line pressure. A few people have lost their lives because they thought more was better. Most places that rent bottles just have you sign the contract ***uming you know what you are doing.
Never laid it down. I always transport them standing up and they are chained to my trolley in the shed. It's late here. Think I'll go out and get it out of my shed just so I sleep better. NO SUDDEN MOVES...O.K.?
I was always told, by the Praxair employees where I buy my gas, that you can transport them on their side no problem. Just set it upright again and wait at least overnight before you use it. Is this incorrect?
26T, I think I've heard similar but I always keep them upright. OK, it's out in the middle of the back yard now. If it goes bang it will deafen the dog and break some windows but at least my cars are safe. Think I'll let them pick it up from me tomorrow. Don't think I need it in my pick up.
Dead right,It used to be written on bottles ...in English ,that you must leave a bottle upright for at least 12 hours to for the liquid to settle back into the absorbent material. Another really bad thing is when that liquid catches fire in the hoses...run like **** and call the fire brigade. They will cool it down if it hasn't exploded. Even Dormant bottles are dangerous,they may be reading empty on a gauge but the packing still has potential in it to explode. A guy nearly got killed here about 2 months ago when he cut a hidden bottle in long gr*** he was mowing with a tractor,it exploded and burnt his tractor out.
Found an MSDS for acetylene, here is a quote from the middle of page 2: "Under normal operating conditions, acetone is not released from the cylinder. However, if the cylinder is overcharged with acetone or acetylene, acetone may occasionally "spit" out. Acetone is primarily an irritant and CNS depressant. High concentrations may have central nervous system effects causing headache, nausea,dizziness, vomiting and fatigue." Here is a link to the MSDS: http://www.boc-india.com/business_area/pdf/MSDS_Acetylene.PDF
Acetylene is stored in the bottle with acetone (which is why it smelled like acetone) in a kind of pumice like material. The acetylene becomes g***ious above the acetone (free acetylene) and that's what you use to cut with. When you lay the bottle on it's side it releases MUCH MORE free acetylene, which makes it unstable. The amount of free acetylene can cause a problem when you open the valve. BAM!!! Same thing that happens when you allow acetylene to leave a cylinder too fast (15psi). Leave the bottle up on end and let the acetone reabsorb some of the acetylene and then it's good. If it still happens something may have cause a problem with the core and the cylinder will be junked for a new one.
Good lord guys. All you have is a bottle that has an acetone overcharge. Rare, but does happen. Will the acetone burn? yes. Will it explode? No. Did it explode while it was spitting out of the torch? Take it back and exchange it for a fresh bottle. If you have a good dealer, no problem, they have experienced this before. If your getting it from a farm fleet place your going to hear all kinds of excuses why it is your fault. You should haul bottles standing up for safety reasons like less chance of damaging the valve and they dont roll around. If you do haul them flat, there is no reason not to unload them and immediately put them to use. The free area of the tank does not change regardless of the at***ude of the tank. I have had this before and all I did was tip the tank over a ways and let some of the excess acetone out. DISCLAIMER- I am not saying that this is proper or even an accepted or safe way of solving this problem. Do at your own risk. You should let the distributor take care of the problem.
You can lay an Acetylene cylinder on its side, stand it up, wait half an hour and cut with it. Otherwise Acetone will pretty much screw the torches up. But, at over 15 psi-Acetylene can spontaneously combust inside the tank. Might be seconds, minutes, or hours-but it'll happen.
Acetylene is unstable at higher pressures, somehow disolving it in Acetone makes it more stable. Now you know why Acetylene tanks are supposed to be stored vertically.
I've done this more times than I can count without issue and I have the big bottles. I've been thinking about making a rack for my truck to hold the huge, freaking bottle upight, but that'll prolly happen when I get my three car and two bike projects done AKA never...
...Just some general oxy/acetylene facts and tech/info + some 'safety' info for anybody interested In the diagnostics and safe use of their shop or home Oxy Acetylene systems.... ---------------------------------------------- Wilth regard to the original question about acetone leaks from the acetylene bottle..... The acetone in an acetylene bottle suspends the acetylene which makes storage much safer. But as a secondary backup, Concrete makes up the bulk of the internals of the bottle which Also helps to suspend and keep the acetylene separated.. Think of it this was... The acetone surrounds and separates every acetylene molecule in the bottle, the captive acetylene is also suspended in the porous structure of the concrete... ------------------------------------------- Without these two 'back up' safety features... OR hypothetically -if you Intentionally were to allow the system to 'fail'.... ....or you (Somehow) allowed two molecules+ (or more) of acetylene to "come together'' '''They would become very 'excited' and would then be much less stable and would want to party like there's no more 1999.... but seriously, -IF two acetylene molecules get exited just think about what happens when you let the all their buddies Join Their Hands and Party... ...The acetone effectively suspends or 'atomizes' the atoms of the fuel or in this case "acetylene"... ....And Acetone has the ability to 'atomize' fuels (!!!As well as many Other molecules!!!!) -not just acetylene... ------------------------------------ ...Common pump grade gasoline when mixed with air (via the carb) is sent down the runners of the intake manifold. One of the functions of the intake runner is to 'mix' and/or to help atomize the fuel in the air before it gets to the combustion chamber. The better the design of the intake runner, the better the distribution of the gasoline in the air, the better and more even the burn. It has been said that an ounce of acetone added to the gas tank can and will perform the same function that it does in the acetylene bottle. The acetone in your gas tank will surround and encapsulate the gasoline atoms.. ...when the carb meters the air/fuel mixture, the mixture is then p***ed down the intake runner where the fuel is normally 'mixed' or atomized before hitting the combustion chamber. If the fuel is already surrounded by acetone, the job of atomizing is partially done before it hits the carb and intake runner. The result is a better and more even burn which relates to a tad more btu's which relates to a tad more HP. That's the theory. (got excessive water in your gas tank? surround and suspend it with an ounce of acetone (per 10 gallons of gas) to help lift it out and burn it off... Suspend and 'Float' it right thru the carb and into the combustion chamber) As far as your bottle spitting out acetone.. Acetone is a common chemical and although extended periods of use/contact can cause cancer. your chances of being harmed by acetone fumes or skin contact are about the same as getting cancer from smoking. The longer you smoke, the greater the chance of cancers. Many people work/have worked with acetone on a daily basis. It is commonly used in the manufacture of boats and/or any fibergl*** parts. ...We used to wash our hands and our tools in acetone to release the fibergl*** from them. no real harm done. As others have stated, your bottle may have been overcharged, in which case. Use the bottle as per usual and the Initial and/or excess acetone will be discharged and burned off. If the bottle was stored laying down.. The common rule is store it upright for an equal amount of time or overnight.... You can transport the bottle laying down in the back of your truck when you pick it up or drop it off. No Harm Done. Just stand the bottle back up for an equal amount of time that you transported it. Let the acetone settle back down from whenst it came. When an acetylene bottle empties, you may accidentally burn some acetone off as you try to squeeze that last bit of acetylene out of it. The acetone burns off easily but with a slight different hue. If your bottles are getting low and you notice that the normally bright yellow flame is now a shade of Orange, you are into the acetone. Shut down the torch and, take it to your supplier at your leisure. There is little to no acetylene left in the bottle and you are drawing off the actual atomizer or the acetone. Again, -No real harm done. The bottler will check and refill the acetone before they Refill it with acetylene. As far as safe operating pressures go... There are a couple rules of thumb that make the difference between a safe oxy/acetylene outfit and a potential deadly time bomb. 1) Never exceed 15psi of acetylene. ever Ever Ever. ..as others have stated, acetylene becomes Much Less stable with the increased pressure you place it under. That's why it is held in acetoneand concrete (they help separate or encapsulate the molecules). The difference in atmospheric pressure and the pressure of the escaping acetylene becomes critical when you exceed 15psi. The acetylene could possibly self ignite if/when you crack the valve and the regulator is set above 15psi. An instant flame could result but in truth, there are safety margins built into the system and the possibility of self combustion at 16+ psi is still small (but not impossible). ----------------------------------------------- *The regulator may become stressed/overworked when you exceed 15 psi. There are single stage and two stage regulators for acetylene. It is generally agreed that the two stage regulator is more accurate and provides a greater level of safety and Accuracy. Irregardless of whether you have a single or two stage regulator, operating the acetylene line at greater than 15 psi places extra load on the regulator which increases chance of failure. Combine this with the above mentioned 'self igniting' ability of acetylene when the release pressure is greater than 15psi and you have a combined threat... If the regulator fails/blows/by p***es because you set it above 15psi, any escaping gas can and will then most certainly be greater than 15 psi. For this reason, the hand valve of the acetylene tank is never cranked open more than one+/- turns. You must be able to quickly shut the valve off if and when something goes wrong. Plus, if the regulator does fail, the hand valve (-being 'closed' or 'almost fully closed') will only allow so much volume/pressure out thru the partially open valve. In essence, the hand valve is/becomes a flow regulator. The 'mostly' closed valve regulates flow (to a certain extent) - when there is no other means of regulating the system (regulator and or total failure and or malfunction) The second rule of thumb.... 2) Never exceed a 7 to 1 ratio of oxy to acetylene...] [[SIZE="4" So, OK, Yes, the optimum oxy to fuel ratio for acetylene is Indeed 5 parts oxygen to 1 part acetylene.[/SIZE] -Or Simply - 5 to 1, (always remember that perfect 5 to 1 ratio and work safe).. And forever think about what may happen if you exceed 5 to 1 and venture into 7 to 1 territory or even into (I'm scared) 10 to 1 territory..... [/B] Running your torch set above or below that ratio wastes fuel and makes for messy and crude cuts of your work piece. If you want a Beautiful, Nice Straight and super clean cut, Then Always start with a clean tip and this means you cleaned it yourself! before you fired the torch! Every time! and Then set your regulators and your torch with the 1 in 5 rule. Another rule of thumb that could be touched upon regards your selection of tip size to the size of the metal to be cut. Most tips are numbered with a 00, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. While not exactly accurate, you can use the tip size number as a general guide as to what thickness of metal you are cutting. If you are cutting 1" and under material than choose a number 1 tip. If you always seem to get a crude cut when cutting 1/4 material, then you may have your torch set wrong, you may have a dirty tip (clean before each use) or you may have a #3 tip and your cutting 1/4 material. Using the above rule of thumb, a #3 tip would best be used on materials between 2" and 3" in thickness. ....Tips are only about $10 so go find a #1 tip and keep it clean. Your tip size, as well as your material thickness, dictate the acetylene (regulator) setting.[/size][/b] For general all around cutting up to about 1" thickness... Always set your acetylene regulator at about 3 to 5 lbs pressure. Never exceed this setting unless you change to a rosebud (heating) tip or change up to a #4 tip and need to cut 3" thick plates. That said.... Regulators are notoriously inaccurate (Although Loveingly closey-ish . You'll need to figure out how accurate your regulator is. Single stage regulators are generally less accurate than two stage regulators. (one actual regulator versus two actual regulators or two stages). and they are the least accurate at the very low end of the dial.. the 0 to 5 lb end. But for the most part, your regulator may only read 1 or 2 lbs off of actual pressure... So if we're looking to set our acetylene regulator at 3 to 5 lbs then we may find that the actual 'running of the torch' may seem to work best when your (inaccurate) regulator is set to 2-7 lbs... Remember, the two stage regulator affords more accuracy, so if your thinking about purchasing, you may consider the more expensive two stage regulator for your acetylene line. ------------------------------------------- Stoichiometry is something we all know and strictly adhere to when we jet and set our carbs on our rides.... All fuels adhere to the same principle of accurate air fuel mixtures/ratios to acquire the most btu's (which relate to hp in an engine) while also running the engine under the most economical conditions. Oxy/acetylene is no different in that is has optimum settings but there is a difference in that both the oxy and acetylene are under pressure. The rule of thumb for gasoline engines is ~14.5 to 1 air to gas engines For Oxy Acetylene it's 5 to 1... So if we set our acetylene (Firstly) to 5 lbs, then we should set our oxy to about 25 lbs or 5 X the setting of the acetylene. That's the most efficient setting and with a clean torch, you will experience good cuts. ----------------------------------------------- What happens when you exceed the 1 in 5 rule? ...Well, unlike a regular gas engine with carb(s), Our oxy/acetylene torch has 2 pressurized lines. Using our guide in setting the torch above, We should have a nice balanced flame with the acetylene set at 5 lbs and the oxy set at about 25 lbs. (*remember that the regulators are inaccurate so your actual torch and regulators may run and operate properly with slight diff's in readings)... Anyway, we have 2 pressurized lines - of different pressures- feeding into the 'mixer' of the torch body.... The mixer is like your carb... It is the large 'barrel part of the torch that you grab and hold (the torch body when you are operating it).. ...The oxy and acetylene fuels come together inside the barrel as you wrap your hand around the body of the torch.... If you deviate from the 1 in 5 rule or exceed the 1 in 7 rule, you overly pressurize one side of the system and can and will push the oxy/acetylene mixture back up one of the neoprene (rubber) hoses and this is where you get backfires or popping of the torch. ....What happens when the torch continually pops or backfires.... OK, well your tip maybe dirty and restricting the ease of exit of the fuel mixture and the back pressure has to go somewhere so it goes back up the lowest pressure line... The Acetylene line. The flame/heat will then be drawn up the acetylene line and cause a series of explosions in the line all the way back to the regulator (and possibly beyond). Always keep your tip clean and keep to the 1 in 5 ratio. As mentioned earlier, The maximum safe ratio for oxy/acetylene is 1 in 7. Never exceed 1 in 7 and try to aim for 1 in 5 for general use cutting /brazing etc. Above we briefly looked at what a dirty tip and a 1 in 5 ratio can do, it can restrict the pressured/mixed fuel at which point the pressure forces the mixed a gas back up the lowest pressure (acetylene) line with subsequent popping and backfires... A clean tip and a ratio that exceeds 1 in 7 will do the same thing.. ...Although we have a clean, non restricted tip, exceeding the 1 in 7 ratio will just generally over pressurize the weakest line which in this case is always the lowest pressure line, the acetylene line. ... lets take it a step further and set our imaginary torch up with a 1 in 10 ratio... We set the acetylene a 5 lbs and then we set the oxy at 10X the acetylene pressure or at 50 lbs.. From the regulators, down thru the hoses the oxy and acetylene enter the mixer which is in the palm of your hand (remember the large round barrel is the mixing chamber). With the oxy line set at 50 lbs and the acetylene line set a t 5 lbs, the mixture can and will ignite at the torch tip easily but the excess pressure of the oxy line can and will push the mixed fuel back up the lowest pressure line or into the acetylene line and it will carry the flame with it to create popping inside the mixer (in your palm) and into the hoses and possibly back up to the regulators. So if you've ever experienced torches that always seems to backfire or pop inside the mixture, Suspect you have too much oxy pressure and/or your tip is restricted/dirty... Both should be checked, adjusted or cleaned. Another kind of popping sound is often heard while operating a torch.... ...Even while adhering to the safe guidelines above, we will sometimes encounter a torch that continually pops at a regular interval.. An over pressured system will pop (loudly) and or backfire at irregular intervals... The loud (and mostly eradicate) pops indicate excessive pressures... But a small and regular 'pop' indicates something of a little different nature. Some torches seem to pop about every 5 or 10 seconds under normal use. The popping is forever present while the torch is running and as stated above, happens every 10 seconds or so like clock work. Regular small pops are an indication that the seat of the torch tip itself is defective or that the corresponding seat that the tip sits against, in the head is damaged or warped (stop using your hot and soft torch as a hammer) The popping is happening between the actual tip and the head, or after the mixer stage. This is not really dangerous other than the fqact that the escaping gas may show or allow a flame to be present at the actual nut of the tip. A small flame from the nut indicates a faulty tip or body seat. A small regular popping just indicates that the leak is between the "center blow" and the acetylene/fuel p***ages at the tip. Again, these are both 'after the mixer stage' and are more annoying than they are dangerous. --------------------------------------------- The oxy/acetylene torch is one of the most (potentially) dangerous tools you will ever own/use or more importantly, that many have stored inside a garage right next to your neighbors Kitchen window... Using the oxy/acetylene torch within it's intended guidelines takes much of the inherent danger out of the equation. Therefor, It is the users responsibility to know how to treat and react to potentially dangerous practices or situations and to create a 'safe' working atmosphere for use of his tools.. But realistically, not many end users or owners know or realize what cons***utes safe vs. marginal practices when operating or storing these tools. For that reason, the oxy/acetylene system has many safeguards built in along with guidelines for safe and practical use. Take away one key safety guideline from the system (in general) and you increase the chances of potential fire/explosion. ...So Burn off too much acetone from a bottle that has been laying on it's side and you increase the odds of system failure.. ..Add to this unsafe working conditions and practices and you remove another of the built in safety margins.... Now all that being said and all things being equal, How often do we hear of home use acetylene explosions taking out several houses? ...Not to often and usually when we do hear of bottle explosions, it's because of a totally separate unrelated fire being started and spreading to the garage... ...And still there is one or more safety features built into the system for bottles that encounter heat/fire... Many bottles have lived (no explosion) even when the house burned to the ground... The built in safety features allowed the gas to burn off at a set rate while all else burned to the ground around them.. ...The bottles are designed to vent and hopefully not explode even when engulfed in excessive heat. The internal concrete that makes up the bulk of the bottles weight also holds the acetylene in somewhat of a suspended animation so a bottle may rip open but the fuel inside the concrete must be heat cracked open and thus the fuel is still crudely regulated and released even under direct heat/fire. .....As you may see, there are many safety features and backup systems inherent in the torch set up. Still we should treat it with respect and hopefully get many years of the most economical use out of it. just my humble opinion, (please excuse my lack of spell checker) moe
If it is in the tank there is no oxgen so how would it combust? I transported them for about 40 years lying down. like recommended always stood them up before using them. Also as an aside why is it necessary to use the F word all the time. I quit doing that when I was about 15 years old. There is no F in aceteylene or oxygen or hot rod
25 some years ago while at school,we were taught that acetylene tanks were filled with ground-up corn cobs. Course that may be the WWII material that they were teaching from-OR- maybe its just a midwest thing...
Keep em standing up when using them. If ya lay em down let em stand up and settle for a while. Some times cold weather causes that problem. When the temp warms up the bottle will return to normal. Get a copy of the safety rules and follow them. Never carry accet. inside of a closed place like a trunk.
I remember my shop teacher telling me about 20 years ago that Ace bottles were filled with Triple A, Acetylene, Acetone, and Asbestos. He told us that the Acetone absorbes the Acetylene, and the Asbestos "cushions" it. He also explained the Asbestos was what would foat out of the lit tip at low pressure without any oxygen. I'm not sure if this is/was true, but I know if you want a more stable mix, there is always Oxygen/Map Gas. It's alot more stable, and can be used at alot higher pressure. Not sure if you'd need it though unless you're cutting some serious metal. One thing though (don't know if you know it or not), but DON"T EVER use your torch to blow debris off your metal work. If pure oxygen hits oil, it explodes! I've seen it first hand in a steel mill with an oxygen lance. Be safe.
THANK YOU MOE. That was the best info I've seen here reguarding Oxy-Acetylene tourch safety practices. I think some of you guys have been very lucky for many years. Time to step up and do things right instead of the "way your have always done it." I have seen acet tanks burn off, its pretty scary to witness. Gene
Moe gives alot of good info. Acetylene C2-H2 is basically held is solution in the porus concrete/plaser substance. The clylinders are filled slowly to desired pressure then allowed to settle and then topped off. They are weighrd prior to filling and weighed after for total cubic ft is caculated. Acetone is added if determined low before filling (by weight). If you draw to fast the acetylene can't come out of solution fast enough and you get acetone at the torch. Acetylene becomes unstable if compessed in a void above 15 psig. Notice you regulator gauge should be red above 15 psig. Used to work at a Air Separation plant and cylinder fill operation years ago.
Sat in at a welding cl*** years ago in Chicago. The Welding Instructor a Alaska pipeline welder by trade, would go out to investigate welding mishaps. After seeing pictures, it scares the **** out of you. Helmet & safety gl***es is the rule there, he had 20 photos of slag burnt in to the eyes. Ugly stuff. The one that was gruesome was a guy taking a broken valve off a empty acetylene bottle with a chisel. Very bad, it exploded blew half his face off and burnt his chest, his arm was ripped off and hit the house needless to say he was dead. Never lay the bottle down. Cap the tanks when transporting. He said acetylene becomes unstable, the best thing is to check with your welding supplier for the pressure. I thought he said 8 lbs it might of been the ratio. I saw the 7 to 1 ratio post and the 15 lbs posts it's been a while, i was a guest just sitting in. Get the right info and wear safety gl***es under the helmet,arc welding was the one that got a lot of welders
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