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Technical drill press chuck questions.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 81ttopcoupe, Oct 1, 2007.

  1. 81ttopcoupe
    Joined: Feb 10, 2005
    Posts: 398

    81ttopcoupe
    Member
    from Cedar Park

    I can't get a bit to chuck straight in my drill press. It's Dayton branded which I bought used, I found a manual for a similar Wilton A3816. I have measured the spindle and arbor with a dial indicator mounted in a stand and they don't wobble or seam out of round (top or bottom). The chuck however does not seem to centered, and a drill bit gets considerable wobble. I have tried removing, cleaning, and reinstalling it, but no luck. (Can chucks be taken apart?)
    There is no name or numbers on my chuck, other than 0-1/2", the Wilton manual I have says the arbor is a #2 MT x JT3. Looking at the Enco catalog, there is are chucks for 3JT, is this the same as JT3?
    Anyone experience similar problems, or know if it is my chuck that is bad? Seems strange to me that the chuck would not chuck a bit straight. Opinions or any commentary (the 411) on drill chucks appreciated. (Quality, type, size, brand, etc.). Thanks.
     
  2. Brad54
    Joined: Apr 15, 2004
    Posts: 6,021

    Brad54
    Member
    from Atl Ga

    This may sound really dumb, but if you've checked the run-out on the spindle and the arbor, have you tried changing a different sized drill bit? If you've only chucked one up into it, it could be bent.

    Basic, I know, but I've done dumber things.
    -Brad
     
  3. HemiRambler
    Joined: Aug 26, 2005
    Posts: 4,207

    HemiRambler
    Member

    Precision costs money - if it's a cheapo or even a worn out chuck - I would expect it to have considerable runout.

    chuck up a dowel pin and measure your runout against that.

    Also the cheapy chucks may have good run out at one drill size and go to heck at another.

    Consider this - any part worth having pride in is worth puting your name on. First sign yours might be garbage.

    A Jacobs Super ball bearing chuck is a real decent one to have - and are priced reasonably. IMHO

    Albretch's (sp?) are REAL nice - if you don't have to reverse.
     
  4. Unkl Ian
    Joined: Mar 29, 2001
    Posts: 13,509

    Unkl Ian

    Chucks can be disassembled,to replace the jaws,etc.I've seen a web page on how to do this,maybe try some of the home shop machinist pages.

    #2MT is Morse Taper,commonly used on large drill bigs and drill chucks.

    JT3 sounds like a Jarno(sp?) Taper,internal,on the back of the chuck.Some use a taper,others have a screw holding the shank in place.

    Also check www.Travers.com for chucks and shanks.
    -------
    With chucks and arbors,you really do get what you pay for.
    Ball bearing chucks are nice,probably over kill for home use.
     
  5. 392_hemi
    Joined: Jun 16, 2004
    Posts: 1,737

    392_hemi
    Member

    JT = Jacobs Taper which is different from MT = Morris Taper. Go to McMaster Carr and type in "about drill chucks" in the search box. That should get you started. You should be able to remove and disassemble the drill chuck to inspect it if necessary.
     
  6. 81ttopcoupe
    Joined: Feb 10, 2005
    Posts: 398

    81ttopcoupe
    Member
    from Cedar Park

    Not dumb, just a detail I left out. I have tried various small bits, large bits, made in china, made in USA, and metal rods, just to make sure, before and after the chuck removal and replacement. I have a limited knowledge of the finer points of machinery (I grew up around mechanical stuff but my training is in electronics) so I am open any suggestions.
     
  7. Unkl Ian
    Joined: Mar 29, 2001
    Posts: 13,509

    Unkl Ian

    The low end Jacob's are not great,the mid range Jacob's are pretty decent value.

    The keyless Albrect's(sp?) are real nice,many of the import clones are not.
     
  8. Homemade44
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 561

    Homemade44
    Member

    Brad, is this the first time you are using the drill press since you bought it? If not did it run true the last time you used it?

    Have you taken the drill chuck and MT2 arbor out of the spindle? It could be that a chip is in the chuck or in the taper in the spindle or the arbor could be bent.

    Take the arbor out of the spindle and clean it with a rag and some solvent. Check the arbor for any dings or burrs. If you have some taper wedges you can remove the chuck from the arbor and put it back in the spindle and check the run out on taper where the chuck fit. That will let you know if there is a problem with the arbor. You could also have a chip in the chuck, is it a key type or keyless. Both type of chucks can be taken apart but neither are easy to get apart. Let us know what you find and maybe we can help further.

    Joe
     
  9. 81ttopcoupe
    Joined: Feb 10, 2005
    Posts: 398

    81ttopcoupe
    Member
    from Cedar Park

    Wow, thanks for all the responses. Give me something to chew on for a while.
    Jacobs Mfg# 14N is what I had in mind to order if I don't find a better solution.

    Joe
    First time I've gotten around to useing it. It had a bad motor when I got it some time back.
    I have not removed the arbor from the spindle, only the chuck from the arbor. The arbor seems to measure straight, ie very small about of wobble(runnout?). I don't remember the measurement at the moment but it was a very small amount compared to the chucks wobble. The arbor and chuck mating surfaces look perfect, and I cleaned them anyway. I tried installing the chuck in different phases in relation to the arbor also, still looks like the chuck is the problem.
    The chuck is the key type, I will have to figure out how to get it apart, maybe there is something stuck up inside it.
     
  10. Unkl Ian
    Joined: Mar 29, 2001
    Posts: 13,509

    Unkl Ian

    You will need a drill drift to get the arbor out of the spindle.
     
  11. Unkl Ian
    Joined: Mar 29, 2001
    Posts: 13,509

    Unkl Ian

    Some of the low end chucks and arbors,the angle on the tapers doesn't match perfectly,so they are more likely to come apart.

    And don't try welding them together,then expect them to be straight.
     
  12. Homemade44
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 561

    Homemade44
    Member

    Joey, any runout on the taper will be amplified at the end of the drill bit. The runout has to be less than .0005 to be considered usable.
    If you have more than that take the arbor out of the spindle. It it is a MT2 it could be held in one of two ways. There could be a drawbar that goes through the top of the spindle and screws into the top of the arbor. The other way takes a tapered wedge to get it out. Pull the handle down that moves the spindle. On the spindle you will see a slot in the side of the spindle. The top of the arbor will have a tang sticking into the slot. If you put something tapered on top of the tang that will fit in the slotted hole and hit it the arbor will come out. Let me know what you find.

    Joe
     
  13. Homemade44
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 561

    Homemade44
    Member

    Joey, there are some things to do before you try to take the chuck apart. If the chuck can be opened and closed easily then open it all the way and spray some cleaner inside and blow it out. Then spray some more cleaner inside and close the chuck and see if it closes all the way and that the jaws meet evenly. The jaws move up and down on a taper inside the chuck body and if there is dirt or a chip inside it can cause the jaws the not close evenly and give you runout. Wear can also do the same thing.

    If you buy a new chuck also buy a new arbor to match the chuck. There are many different tappers for the chuck so make sure they match. A MT2 arbor is small and can be bent easily enough to give you a problem don't use the old one on a new chuck they are cheap.

    Joe
     
  14. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,933

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Good luck getting under half a thou runout with a drill chuck, especially a used one.

    If you can get the runout under two thou (0.002"), that's as good as can be expected from pretty much any drill chuck.

    With a drill press, you've got bigger fish to fry besides worrying about getting zero runout. You have to consider the fact that most all drill press tables will never be truly square to the spindle axis to begin with. No sense worrying about two thou of runout when your hole is five or ten thou oval shaped to begin with. ;)

    If you have to hold a thou on diameter, you need to be working on a milling machine, or better yet, a jig bore, and you need to drill under and ream to size. None of which will do you any good on a drill press.

    That said, if you can see the runout of the arbor with your naked eye, that is the problem. Acceptable runout numbers are small enough to need a dial indicator to measure. Chances are the previous owner crashed the machine. It's fairly common for a crash to bend just the arbor and leave the spindle and chuck intact.

    I'd try a new MT2 to JT3 arbor from Enco or MSC before I bought another chuck. It'll only cost you a few bucks ($15 on the outside), and you'll need one anyway should you then find you need to change the chuck too (it's generally considered a bad idea to mount a new chuck on a used arbor, especially considering the small cost of a new one).
     
  15. Homemade44
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 561

    Homemade44
    Member

    Ryan, the runout I am talking about is at the tip of the taper on the arbor which will give you a couple of thousands at the end of the chuck. If you have .002 on the arbor you will be a lot further out. Drilling is not a precision operation. The arbors are ground in one setup and the tolerance can be held very tight.
     
  16. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,933

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Gotcha.

    I thought you meant half a thou at the drill. That's is pretty hard to do, even in a collet.

    In the past, I've seen guys be given poor advice and go looking for unrealistic accuracy from machines that weren't built for it. They end up just frustrating themselves, so I thought I'd try to save the guy some trouble. In this instance, it was unwarranted, as you obviously know what you're talking about. That's not always the case (that the guy is knowledgeable, not that you don't always know what you're talking about ;) ).

    By all means, carry on.

    To the OP: I hope you find your runout issue without spending too much green.
     
  17. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 8,865

    noboD
    Member

    81TTop, take the chuck out of the drillpress and put a drill or dowal pin in the chuck. Place the dowal pin in a V block , sit it on the DR table, spin the chuck by hand,and check the run out of the chuck with an indicator. This will tell you if the chuck is running out. It could be that the shaft is bent inside the press.People HAVE been known to sell something they know has problems. The number 2 Morse taper should be the taper that goes up in the quill., very common. Good luck.
     
  18. 81ttopcoupe
    Joined: Feb 10, 2005
    Posts: 398

    81ttopcoupe
    Member
    from Cedar Park

    Took a few minutes this morning and put the dial indicator to the arbor. My indicator has .001 graduations, the runout was about 1/2 of a graduation, .0005 to error on the large side. If I remember correctly, when I measured a large drill bits wobble (just below the chuck) a while back, it was around .007. What ever it was it was quite obvious that it was wobbling to the naked eye.
    I forgot to look at the arbor to see about removeing it. I'll spend some of my free time today at work researching the suggestions above.
     
  19. Homemade44
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 561

    Homemade44
    Member

    Joey, With the measurements that you have taken, it tells me that the spindle and quill are probably in reasonably good condition. Since your chuck is a "no name" and would probably have to be pressed apart to see the insides I would replace it if you can't clean it as described earlier. Replace both the chuck and arbor.

    Cool hand, no problem, thanks.

    Joe
     
  20. 81ttopcoupe
    Joined: Feb 10, 2005
    Posts: 398

    81ttopcoupe
    Member
    from Cedar Park

    Couple of pictures af the arbor. Looks like the spindle needs to come out of the quill in order to get the arbor seperated from the spindle. Anyone done this on a press like this before that can give some pointers?

    I priced a new Jacobs arbor, Jacobs 14N chuck, drifts, and wedges today. Looks like ENCO is by far the least expensive for the works at around $165 shipped. Jacobs specificaiton says this chuck has .003 runout.
     

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  21. Unkl Ian
    Joined: Mar 29, 2001
    Posts: 13,509

    Unkl Ian

    Turn the hand wheel,like you are drilling a hole.

    Look on the side of the quill,around 3-4" from the bottom.

    You should see a slot that runs through,and the end
    of the drill chuck arbor will be visible in the hole.

    Now you need the right size drill drift,insert the drift into the hole,and tap the end with a hammer.This will pop the arbor loose.
     
  22. Unkl Ian
    Joined: Mar 29, 2001
    Posts: 13,509

    Unkl Ian

    Large drill bits come with Morse Taper shanks.
    They can transmit more torque than a straight shank in a chuck.
     
  23. 81ttopcoupe
    Joined: Feb 10, 2005
    Posts: 398

    81ttopcoupe
    Member
    from Cedar Park

    Bad news, for me, no drift key in this one. If you look at the picture on the right, there is a roll pin which holds the arbor in the spindle. That wouldn't be such a bad thing, but the spindle must be removed from the quill to get a straight shot at the roll pin. Which wouldn't be a bad thing, but if you look at the picture on the left, there is a bronzish color ring inside the quill, a bearing retainer the manual calls it, with a couple of offset slots in it, and it is threaded into the quill. I tapped on the bronzish thing with a screw driver in the slot to see if it would turn but the material was soft and dented instead of turning.
    Yep, I pulled the quill/spendle out of the drill press.
    Next, I thought I would just press it out the other side, so I removed the snap ring on that side, put it in the press and...it wont move, and now it probably needs new bearings as well.
    :confused: :( :mad:
     
  24. Homemade44
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 561

    Homemade44
    Member

    Joey, It looks like the taper to hold the chuck is part of the spindle and can't be changed without changing the spindle. If there is not a slotted hole in the side of the quill then it probable is not really a MT2 arbor. There is one other type of MT2 arbor arrangement but it is not real common on a drill press. Look on the top of the spindle and see if there is a long bolt head. If there is you would have a draw bar arrangement. The draw bar is just a long bolt that threads into the top of the arbor. If you loosen the bolt about one turn and hit it firmly with a hammer it will break the tapper loose and you can unscrew the bolt and take the arbor out. I don't think you have that set.

    Look on the old chuck that you took off and see if it has any numbers that tell you what the taper in the chuck is. Look for something that says J-3, J-33 or some other letter and number designation. If the tapper is still in good shape you can probably put a new chuck on it and be ok. Don't use pliers or anything else on the taper or you will ruin it.

    If you would like to talk about this send me a PM, private message, with you phone number and a time to call and I will call you.

    Joe
     
  25. Unkl Ian
    Joined: Mar 29, 2001
    Posts: 13,509

    Unkl Ian

    Since you checked the run out on the end of the arbor,
    and it was ok,how about just installing a new chuck ?
     
  26. 81ttopcoupe
    Joined: Feb 10, 2005
    Posts: 398

    81ttopcoupe
    Member
    from Cedar Park

    Cleaning the old chuck didn't help, next I am going to be putting it in a tub of vinegar just in case there is rust up in there. There are no numbers on the chuck, or arbor. McMaster Carrs web site gives the dimensions of all the different arbors so I can verify the correct size before I order a new one.
    Friday I am ordering the new chuck, etc, regardless. I have an idea on how to make a tool to get the bearing retainer that holds the spindle out without destroying anything using a peice of 1 5/8 tubing and some key stock. www.metalsdepot.com lists a 1 5/16 O.D., 120 wall, 1.073 I.D. that is the perfect size and I saw a rack of key stock at Fasten All today. Hopefully I can find a peice of tubing locally though.
     
  27. 81ttopcoupe
    Joined: Feb 10, 2005
    Posts: 398

    81ttopcoupe
    Member
    from Cedar Park

    I got the parts I ordered. Definitely different than what I had. As soon as I get the old arbor out I can figure out what I really needed.
    So what holds the chuck to the arbor on a normal drill press?
     
  28. noboD
    Joined: Jan 29, 2004
    Posts: 8,865

    noboD
    Member

    Usually just the taper, it's pressed in. Carefully put the arbor in a vice and whack the chuck.
     
  29. Jeeter
    Joined: Nov 18, 2004
    Posts: 79

    Jeeter
    Member

    I've had great luck with ENCO Brand. My $.02
     

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