Well, the HAMB "GODS" have sent me a message that I should contribute something. Well, I really enjoy the board, but I'm right in the middle of retiring and I am changing residences, so my life at this point is kind of a shambles; however, I do have a project that I have a question with, so I'll ask you guys for a hint about a problem I have, even though you may kick me off the board. This all started in 1965 when I built a "T"-bucket from a $10.00 body and a 1955 Dodge (270 Hemi) that I bought for $15 and drove to college when I was in grad school. Life arrived (marriage, divorce jobs) and I had to sell the car after a couple of years. I had a lot of fun with it, but it had to go. Anyway, since then, I got involved with Corvettes, antique FireTrucks, and vintage dirt track racers, and didn't do the hot rod thing for the last 40 years. I have been ac***ulating "stuff" for the last 40 years, and about a year ago, I thought, "Geez, I think I have enough to build another "T"- bucket. Ony this time, I have a few more friends and "T"-buckets are a dime a dozen, so I decided to do a touring (thus "Tubman"). I had a real good flathead engne, overdrive transmission, and rear end out of a 40,000 mile '50 Ford I bought from a guy who had had it in his garage since 1954 after a tree fell on it during a storm (He was going to "fix it"; all he did was set what was left of the rest of the interior on fire with a torch). Anyway, now I have a rolling ch***is with the late model flathead and transmission "mocked up". Here's where I'm going to loose most of you. I am getting close enough that this may be on the road next year. I have been looking, looking, looking for a good metal "T" touring body, but I cant find anything even close to what I can afford. Horror of horrors, I bought a pretty nice fibergl*** Tub for a guy in Missouri for what I considered a good price. Anyway, I am working on this body to get it reay to mount on my frame, until I get a real metal body (better to drive a gl*** car on Saturday night than sit at home). I've go the sides and the front (firewall) done in oak spars and 3/4" and 1" inch square tube, but I just CAN'T get the tube that goes aroud the back of the body to be bent right. I've wrecked about 200' of square tube, but I can't even get close. So, after all of this diatribe, here is my question. How do I bend this compound curve support tube? Is there some other way to do this? I'm OK for now figuring out the pedals, gas tank, etc, but one of these days, I'm going to have to figure out how to reinforce the back of the body. Any ideas guys? Thanks in advance.
Worst case you might build it up out of flat pieces and weld them together to form it. There was a custom merc frame on another thread done that way with laser cut parts then welded up. That took care of the curves, etc. just a thought.
Could you use round electrical conduit for the top and bottom radiused pieces with square for the uprights? You've GOT to have an electrician buddy somewhere with a bender.
The tubing I have been using is 3/4" AND 1" square .060 wall. The compound curve is a *****. BYW, I have ben using a conduit bender in the square tube and it worked great on the simple curves. I don't think I'd like to use actual electrical conduit, but perhaps some thin wall 3/4" or 1" inch mild stel might work. I've come kinda close on the stretch across the back, but I just can't hold the compound corners at the end.
Good post as i have one of the tub bodies myself and plan on using a T frame etc. On my last car we used round conduit instead of square. Square was used on the floor and sides with round at the top. Watching from Indy. Got any pics yet ??
I think your problem may end up solved by a bunch of relief cuts amid the bends, and then a lot of time welding them back up after fitting.
The round tubing seems like a good way to go. If you want to go square make it in several sections. To curve a section fill it with DRY sand and cap the ends with weld on covers, heat the tubing with a torch til red then gently bend. NOTE: if the sand is wet it will go bang and wreck your whole day. Good Luck
it might be a little more work, but in the past I've used garden hose. Glued it in place, then gl***ed over it. Seemed to get pretty strong, and all the curves of the body were easy to follow. Have cut doors out, and the body didn't flex a 1/16th of an inch. Makes for a nice platform for the threads too.
My brother and I built a Kellison drag body 27 T in 1961. It was very thin and week. It was a roadster pickup. The body curve around thr back had some funny curves. I filled a garden hose full of resin and clamped it in many, many places. After it set up I gl***ed it in place. After 46 years it hasen't moved or cracked. Ran B/A for years 10.03, and always on the street. If anyone around Portland, Ore. sees it for sale let me know. Brother has been bedridden in a privite care home for 7 years. Family will sell anything, but not to me. He also has a gl*** tall T..............OLDBEET
If you have a boatyard nearby, stop off and pick up a couple lengths of structural foam coring stock. Something with a cross section of 1/2" x 1" should be fine for your needs. Two of the edges should have a gentle radius in them which will easily allow the gl*** cloth to conform to it's shape. Rough up the area to receive the reinforcement and clean with acetone. Mix up a little polyester resin, then thicken it with anything handy (even sawdust will work). Use this to glue the foam shape in place after cutting it to length. Use small pcs of duct tape to hold it in place until the resin hardens. Once dry pull the tape off, mix up a little Bondo, then form an inside fillet at the angle where the foam meets the body gl***, maybe a 1/4" fillet, again just to allow the gl*** cloth to follow the shapes without forming an air pocket (weak spot). Get a roll of 3" fibregl*** cloth tape, cut to match the length of the foam rib, then lay down 3-4 layers using the polyester resin. Work the resin in with a cheap brush ensuring no voids or dry spots. This is a common technique in boatbuilding where strenth is needed without adding a lot of weight. The same foams can be found in some hobby shops, surboard and homebuilt aircraft suppliers. Cheers, Mark
Thanks guys, I'm really glad I posted this. I really like the idea of using fibergl*** like the last couple of suggestions. The piecing together thing would probably work, but I like the idea of smooth flowing fibergl***. The only other thing I think I have to worry about is how to join it into the existing structure. I believe a few 1/2" holes in the oak spars with some gl*** cloth will work just fine (and maybe some stratigically placed sheet metal screws). HEY HAMB GODS!! Thanks for pushing me on this; the response was way better than I would have expected. I'll post some pic's after I get back up to my new place up north (where my shop is now; I told you I was switching locations). Again, thanks for the response.
I have been thinking about my responce to you, if bending the tubing leave room for the sand to move in the tubing and also provide a steam hole for venting. Some of the other idea's seem better than the square tubing.
MAW is correct, structural foam is a great choice. If you want to use that instead of wood, which is more difficult to shape; you can get this type foam at Applied Vehicle Technolgies in Indianapolis; they ship, same day. Very good people there. Also Aircraft Spruce and specialty, as well as Wag-Aero. It's pretty cheap and you can also cheat a litttle and score it to help it make curves. It sands to contour super easy. I would prepare the surface by first roughiing it up and then cleaning as MAW suggested. Then I'd lay one ply at least on the body before applying the foam and w****** it well with gl*** and resin. You need to work it down to try to keep the resin/cloth tight as possible to the surface. The less air between parts, the stronger the joint. You can get this foam in various thicknesses, I don't think I'd get it any thicker than about 1/4 inch or 3/8. It's trade name at AVT is Last-A-Foam. I simply wouldn't be screwing around with steel.
If you have a decent 23-25 body you don't even need all that structure at all. A perimeter reinforcement under the top rail of 1/2" rebar epoxy painted and mounted in a bed of your favorite body filler, a good 3/4" marine plywood floor and equal backup for the firewall, plus an ash/oak cowl support up inside under the windshield, a couple of aluminum or steel reinforcement plates for the windshield post mounting and you should be good to go. And don't use all your interior room and footroom for a freakin' bellhousing bump and driveshaft tunnel big enough to park a Mack truck inside either. A 1/2" of clearance is fine. You don't need all that pieced together wood, steel or whatever. It won't save you in a collision and just makes the car heavier. KISS.
Use the square tubing that you had originally intended to use. Use a hand held hacksaw to cut through the side of the square tube that will be closest to the inside of the curve, also cut the top and bottom web, but leave the part which will ba against the outside of the curve intact. Make these cuts about 3/4" apart. You will find it very easy to bend the tube to the shape you want. Clamp it into place, then tack weld the cuts enough to hold things in place, then pull the peice out of the car and completely weld up all the sawcuts.
i like the garden hose idea.. but i'd run across the street to my neighbors and take his.. i use mine to wash my car.. -Anthony
A garden hose full of resin has as much structural integrity as a frozen rattlesnake!! One good tap, and the whole thing shatters. If you are planning to strengthen a body, use either steel, properly bent as explained above, and gl***ed into place, or else wood, gl***ed into place. In order to make wood work, it has to be in an area where the wood can have enough cross sectional depth to have some structural integrity.---In either case the key words here are "gl***ed into place"---meaning that the strengthening member should be completely covered in fibergl*** that ties back into the gl*** of the body being strengthened.
I don't know how many doors you're going to have in the Tub, but If you're doing lots of fibregl*** work, make sure the whole body is jigged up 100% square and correct beforehand. Sounds like you might have plenty of square section tube to do that. Getting it right now will mean less adjustment at the final fit-up. Look forward to seeing the pics.
I did a little experimenting and found out something interesting. I had the piece of fibergl*** that I cut out for the transmission tunnel; I ended up with a semicircular piece of fibergl*** about 20" wide. I did some experimenting with it and some s**** pieces of the oak I used to test various adhesives. I roughed up the surface of the inside of the body panel and the wood, and then tried several different types of adhesives to glue them together. The three I remember were regular fibergl*** resin, Gorilla Glue (don't laugh; it's worked very well for me in the past), and regular Liquid Nails construction adhesive from the hardware store. Plus there were several more that I have forgotten because they didn't work at all well. I let each of them cure for two days, and then gave them a good Whack! with a BFH. The wnner? Liquid nails. The block of wood broke before the bond, leaving a strip of wood bonded to the fibergl***. A couple of others left some wood sticking to the gl***, but the Liquid Nails obviously seemed to be the best. Getting all of this advice has invigorated me, I gotta go back up north and get to work.
Something to remember when testing adhesives. It's not just ultimate strenght on day one. It's bonding over time. Using compatible fibergl*** products means you won't have long term instability due to conflicting pH between the gl*** and liquid nails. Resin will also expand and contract at the same rate as the resin-based body. Lord only knows what kind of volatiles will come off the liquid nails on a hot day, possibly causing paint problems on the other side of the panel. Not saying it won't work great, just a few things to think about. Good luck
I have found that the best (and cheapest) bonding agent is fibergl*** resin and fibergl*** matt. Cut the wood to shape. Take a 60 grit wheel and scuff up the fibergl*** in the area that you want to bond to. Lay up 2 layers of matt and wet resin, paint a coat of wet resin onto the wood, then immediately clamp the wood into place, right on top of the wet matt thats already there. This gives an excellent bond---And, Oh Yes,---Softwood, such as pine or fir plywood bonds better than any hardwood. Hardwood has such a dense cell structure, that the resin can not penetrate it to give a really strong bond. A softwood, on the other hand, will let the resin "soak into" it, and the resulting bond will be much stronger.--and your upholsterer will like you much better, because when upholstery time comes, the softer wood will take an upholsterers staple much more readily than a hardwood.---Brian
1/4" luan (plywood) strips cut to follow the contour and gl***ed in place. Three layers produces a very strong support and your upholstery guy will love it.
OK, I know that it's been a LONG time since anybody went here, but I'm just now finding it, searching for advice. I see now from your experience that I want to use 'gl*** to bond, not Liquid nails like I was going to, even tho the stuff works good. I'm trying to save the killer paint job on this old altered body,( striping and lettering by Ed Crawford) but make it strong enough for street duty. Here's the thing. When this car was built the car was designed so that the body doesn't carry any weight but it's own. I have kept this idea as I converted the car to street duty even to the point of NOT opening the glued shut doors. My question is this, IF the body is only carrying it's own weight, and the firewall is mounted to a hoop that mounts my ansen swinging pedals and steering column, do I really need to do more than reinforce the top rail on the body? Oh, BTW, it's a '29 A roadster body, and the ch***is is a2x4 (well built, and engenieered, I might add) sq. mild steel T-bucket style ch***is with outriggers to work with the '29 body. 454, 4 speed. corvair steering, early '70's old school. What I see is a wood floor, mounted to the ch***is, and gl***ed to the body, a wood firewall with a thin aluminum skin gl***ed to the body and mounted to the afore mentioned cowl hoop, and a bulkhead in the back to close off the "****pit" from the gas tank, and rear of the frame. then I would build an inner skin of 1/8 ply on 3/4 ply bulkheads to mount the interior vinyl on. What do you think? am I missing anything here? I thought about mounting the firewall to the hoop and letting it ride indipendant of the body, but I'm afraid that the whole ***embly would start to unravel after a few miles without the stiffness of the hoop to keep it from vibrating. I know you guys don't like 'gl***, and now that I'm writing this maybe I should go to the t-bucket guys, but since it's NOT a Bucket I'm here. And as for the body being gl***, well, you work with what you have don't you? Any help you guys can give will be much appreciated, the only 'gl*** experience I've had was owning a '73 Vette once. Thanks, Mike
My car has a Minotti body. Minotti uses poplar for the wood framing, he said he has tried other types of wood before and found that the poplar is the most stable and adheres to the gl*** best.
Mike, one thing to consider is the rear ****pit bulkhead. That needs to be really strong and secure if that is also gonna be the seat back. Or the seat back is attached to it. It needs to keep you out of the trunk when you hit 2nd gear.
Tubman-If you still want to use the square steel tubing, indent one side of it(the inside of the curve) with some round stock in a vice or press first. The built up wood is probably the best way to go though.
I used liguid nails to glue some headliner bows to the roof. Held very well. Car was painted then it set in the sun. The liquid nails evidently reached its full cure. Causing the top to draw down to the top bows,making the top look like it had 3 creases in it . Luckily I was able to use a ulility knife and seperate the bows from the top, everything went back to normal. Moral is don't bond wood to fibergl*** if its going to be in an area that is flat or out in the open. This includes using gl*** and resin, bondo etc. It works if you bond in door jams or edges. My pesonal expirence.
Im building my own body starting with a metal sub structure and have used 1/2 and 3/4 thin wall conduit as well as square and angle - body skelaton is as stout as , well it is stout. here are some pics - frame is a hand built job too - and steering wheel - next step 1/4 mesh wire and then fibergl***
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