This is the OEM Bendix EFI system used in '58 on Chrysler products. The car is a 1958 DeSoto Adventurer convertible. Modern EFI units don't look dissimilar to this one. I understand the electronics have been modified/changed so that it operates dependably. I think some attention to detail and they'd look alike.
Heres a little setup on a hemi that doesn't look to bad.I get the impression too many people worry what someone else thinks about their car and build it to suit them.Over here 97's are getting hard to find and if there was a viable alternative(cheap as well) a lot would more than likely use it.Happy new year,keep on roddin'.
That was a very neat hidden port injection,done by Bob Ida.Very expensive!! This is a TBI . Gemini EFI
Very cool! Is it intended to run as a speed density setup? Closed loop system? What details can you share since it is a prototype?
Thanks for the interest. Our (we build our own) computer is speed density,self tuning and self learning.Uses all the same sensors as a G.M. system. Computer should be available for sale the end of January.Because of the less than perfect availibilty of the 97 carbs,and the fact that the British guys don't want to sell us new pieces,we will retro customers carbs on an as sold basis.We can build a whole system or sell the computer and or carb mods separately. Still wrestling with the price for carb mods and necessary parts.If we build the whole system it will be bolt it down wire it up and drive away situation. The attachment shows how highly modified the carbs are. We have a new feature that will allow the idle to be adjusted from as smooth as the engine is capable of, to as rumpy as you like with out effecting the proper AFR when not idling Gemini EFI
the megasquirt 2's processor is much faster... uses the MC9S12C64 (16 bit, 24mhz) compared to the 749's 68HC11 (8 bit, 8mhz). MS2 has 64K onboard flash, so no eprom to pull/burn/replace (although damn i like the idea of the Moates on-the-fly switcher for the 749... 16 programs would be nice!) what's the resolution on the 749? what kinda tables? MS2 has individual 12x12 for VE, AFR and advance... and can use dual tables for AFR. think i remember seeing somewhere the 749 was 16x16, but can't verify that... not saying one is better than the other, just really curious about the 749 ECUs... i've thought about using one in a project... something that looks along the lines of the Bendix EFI. as far as cost/ease, the 749 sounds good. damn hope all this non-traditional techie stuff doesn't get me booted from da HAMB
One of the huge reasons to have a Hot Rod is so that you dont have to have a bunch of electronics/computers in your ride. This stuff ****s and has no place on any Hot Rod, traditional or otherwise.
Man I agree, more so when its supposed to be and is presented as traditional. It screams poser like a bolt on 12 spoke but to each his own.
Yes it is 16x16 for VE and AFR is monsterous even larger than the FAST IIRC. the prices Ive showed are Junk yard prices. as this is better anyway in that from most junkyards they come with a chip and cal packwhere GM and remans come bare. I am not in formed on the MS2 Only know bitts of the original. and I steered clear. Started playing with the 148's in the Buicks(Buick GN) and seeing all the Benifits of the 749 (Sy,Ty). witch are running in The Gns's as well. For these ecms to run All they need is a fuel pulse to trigger The injectors. and run batch fire with injectors mounted in a gutted carb in that plenum. remember these are wet intakes. a as pointed out. they do not respnd well to port FI How ever a tunnel ram would work ok for a port system. the three wires needed to triggerthese ECMs are the Tan/ Blk, White and Blk/red wires on the Small cap late model HEI As long as your not going to use Sequential Fire injection The ECM really does not care weather it is a 3x or a 4x signal. the other sensors/controls needed are TPS, CTS, IAT, MAP, O2 and IAC. most are pretty easy to hide. I would have to refire one of my old hard drives to give you all the specifics on the 749. But yes the 749 is far advanced form the 148. which is plenty capable Also technicly the 749 is a PCM. and the 148 is also capable of 16 progams using a thumwheel chip I like the 148 due to its simplicity and fuel and timing adjustments can be made using the gas pedal (TT Chip) The 749 is equivalent to my 7060 project wire count wise and that would scare most away(see attach) Gemini How would the self learning computer fair Drivability wise against either of the above controllers (when tuned with a scanner and logger)?? does it have an open loop idle and WOT? how does it learn that. does it use a wideband ?? how would you increase injector size with out it going **** rich untill the O2 warmed up. if it would even start Im not knocking any thing as the above technology is 16 yrs old now and thats where Im at and out in left field as well. I love doing what cant be done Sorry if this is hard to read or missed anything. It is a large topic and I think 800 times faster than I can type.
cool info to have. i've got many of the parts of a Bendix EFI, that i'm planning on using sometime in the future... a proper ECU with MAP is what it needs. MS 1 kinda ****ed. MS 2, while still having 12x12 maps, is pretty damned good. my daily driver was running MS 2 for a while, with stellar driveability. i actually quite agree with the naysayers (****, don't think i've ever used that word before) about modern EFI not belonging on a hot rod... although i strongly feel the whole "build it fer yerself, **** everybody else", too. plus, i like squeezing a lot of very usable power out of stuff, and retaining the best driveability that i can. my hot rod project is staying carbed... i enjoy the simplicity, and really, the thing will weigh so little that it'll scoot with a reasonably stock carbed motor... but this Bendix setup... man, i'd love to use it (and have it work) in something. something like a plymouth belmont copy (think early sports car). just something, someday. if none of the above makes any sense, it's new years, and i've been drinking
They now have the MSnS -E 2.0 firmware for the MS2 processor. This increases resolution to 16x16 and has oodles of other features. http://www.m***tra.com/ms2extra/ http://www.m***tra.com/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_general.htm#features -Chris
no i understand and agree. im not really going for period perfect. i want to drive the **** out of this truck so im just LOOKING into some options. i have access to "big stuff" stand alone management systems and one of the best in the world at tuning them. thats what we use on alot of the limited street and outlaw 10.5 dragsters we build. i like alot of the traditional stuff and i will stick to that as much as i can and i really want a 3x2 setup. i just think i can get some more drivability out of it with fuel injection. in all honesty let me know if you have any other suggestions. im very unfamiliar with old strombergs and rochesters and the like. actually im totally ignorant. never had my hands on one. at this point im just looking and thats where the question about where and how much the mooneyes 97's are. i cant even get a ballpark figure and trust me ive looked. i havent called mooneyes though.............
I would guess that hot rodders of the 50s would have been all over this stuff if it was available back in the day its about going faster right? Why is it that so many modern day hot rodders are such luddites?
Its funny that you say that cause I was just thinking that same thing. If it was available back then I'm sure they would have been all over it. Better power and better reliability. The younger crowd back in the day daily drove these things. I'm sure they would have took daily driver reliability any day of the week over a better looking engine. -Chris
Even though this topic really interests me I do understand the naysayers. This is afterall a "traditional rod and custom" forum. And not just some hot rod forum. So keep the at***udes in check. This is about as O/T as it can get.... I do like the MegaSquirt stuff a lot. I'm kind of skeptical of some of the guys that are merely here to pimp their wares and not offer any real technical info or help.
I remember this post. Seems like it was a couple of years ago. I have to agree with the people who said their customer service ****s. Except maybe saying it ****s doesn't really cover it. I will never order anything stright from Moon again. Just my personal experience.
Apparently you guys completely missed the '58 DeSoto with the EFI unit. It was available back then. The problem was that it wasn't reliable. The electronics were not where they are now. General Motors used a mechanical fuel injection, and Chrysler used the Bendix electric unit. One worked marginally better than the other. AMC and Studebaker were looking at the Bendix units on their cars as well. I don't think this 'speed equipment' is any less 'traditional' than using air bags for suspension. And the air bag systems in the 1950's were not any more dependable than the fuel injection systems.
I agree, I know Im here for the traditional stuff. If we all thought like that we would all be running 575 crate motors with Vortex superchargers and turbos.
Now I agree with Muttey on this subject, vintage should be vintage. Efi with "the look" is directly linked, to the make it easy for me too, nancy ricer generation out there that have gotten their hands on some vintage tin. I think it ****s, but I actually only chimed in here to lay out the fact that it is your car and you should do what you want with it. More than anything, the core factor in being a real hotrodder is to be able to build what you want, so it looks and performs to your standards, not someone elses. Though I do agree that if EFI was there then in the same degree and worked well it would have been used by anyone with the means for it. However it wasn't, and big part of an old car or a traditional build is the way it not only looked but ran and acted aswell. Trust me I've wired up more injected 5.0s, tpi 350s, LS1s in old bodies, installed more power windows, airconditioners,four bars,bear claw latches,ididit columes and Mustang II kits for customers than I care to remember. Been there, sad to say I've done that. It just lacks the real hotrod factor to me. Updates like this make a vintage ride just as soulless as a Civic. Cut your own line just don't call it something its not without expecting to be called on it. Yah, and have fun with Mooneyes tech support if you go that route...
a couple years ago I think it was Street Rodder that had an article on converting JUNK Strombergs to efi.Part of the float bowl area needed to be cut away to hide the injectors .Does anyone remember this article?I kept this article for a long time but lost a bunch of books to a flooded ba*****t and this was one.
well i def. understand the traditional aspect of hotrodding and i must say that i didnt realize just how traditionaly focused this site is. i do enjoy this site and i can see how this might be at the very edge of whats exceptable modifications to this site. but didnt the draggers of this period run alot of new fangled (at the time) fuel injection? im not sure if its efi itself or the fact that some people buy it ready to run instead of scratch building a setup like that. in other words i tend to think it would be exceptable and even impressive to some of these people if me or anyone else were to scratch build a efi setup. im not *****ing one bit but what period is this websites tradition set in? 40's 50's 60's? its too easy to get into a personal phislosophy debate. a battle of opinions. theres budget builds back in this time period just as there is full on big money funded sponser rides like don garlits and the like going on then too. now listen im not trying to be a smart *** fng im just saying it gets hard to draw the line between tradition and being a creative hotrodder. yes i know ordering a mooneyes setup and bolting it to my **** is hardly a creative move but back in the day they did bolt a gm 327 (already built) to there cars. I DO RESPECT THE TRADITIONAL ASPECT OF THIS SITE! it is what made me sign up. i respect everyones opinion on this site because there doing the same thing im doing. building a hotrod. it sounds like i have already been talked out of the mooneyes setup (not from the fuel injection point but the quality and customer service point). anyways happy new years ya greasers!
DZ. I like what you've said.. and see that we are on the same page. IF you were asking how to put a TPI on a SBC in your model a you'd deserve to be run off.. but alas what your thinking is to build something Unique, which is what I intend to do as well.. theres ALOT of good technical info here.. some of those who have replied Just fail to see its relevance..
Hmm, I have no problem with using the cutting edge technology that they had back then. Using the cutting edge technology of to 70s or latter bores the piss out of me. I would be impressed and awed by someone building an EFI system with 50s or 60s technology. Retrofitting new carp? No. Personally I have a hot rod to enjoy it, that means working on it, dealing with its little personality traits, niggling problems and flat out failings. I have a daily driver for EFI.
again i def. respect everyones opinion. just remember im not going for period perfect but i do want to stay within the realm of traditional yet very drivable. i just dont want to mess with my carbs every 100 miles. what kind of reliability do ya think i might get out of a stromberg or rochester 3x2 setup... no efi. like i said ive never had my hands on one (much less 3). what size would be good for say max 300 - 350 hp. im not looking to set a new time record here just have a little fun and be able to take it on 400 mile runs and such. only thing ive HEARD of the stromberg 97's is they can leak and be a little too big for daily drivability? they make some 81's or something like that? heard they can be more streetable? basically what im asking is help me out with a place to start reasearching. what is your opinion of a "as mentioned" setup for this 327. oh and i AM building every aspect of this car from the ch***is up. thats the point to me..... (except for a efi system if i go that route) lol. thanks in advance!
See the pictures posted on the DeSoto. You can make a similar system to the Bendix unit but with a 4-bbl type throttle body. Edelbrock (who sold parts in the '50's) has these. In fact they probably sell everything else you need including the intake. You can also search out an original GM system, but these will be pricey (remember, these were mostly Corvette pieces). How these look and operate is a matter of detail. Top it off with a vintage style air cleaner and I'd bet most couldn't tell the vintage. Both systems were available at some point in 1957.
DZ I have been getting prices together for a 3x2 sbc setup.What I have come up with is an offenhauser 3x2 manifold approx 300.00 .Oreillys wants 196.00 ea for rebuilt rochester 2gc carbs. If you can find the cores rebuild kits are around 20.00 ea. From what I hear these are pretty reliable plus you should get pretty good milage .
i pieced together a GM system... was hell bent on usin' it on my SBC powered rod, about 8 years ago. i tracked down every last part, and all dirt cheap (took a couple years). then a 'vette restorer threw money at me for it. i took that money and bought a clean '54 chevy, and had money left over. surprised the hell out of me what 'vette guys will pay for stuff like that... i've now pieced together a great deal of the Bendix EFI, which i might use on something, someday. as far as a 3x2 setup... i ran a trio of rochester 2g carbs with progressive linkage. once tuned, i never touched 'em for around 60k miles and pulled some good mileage. cores can be found if'n ya look around... easy to rebuild.
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