I read about the new aluminum flathead block just a few weeks ago. The web site, which I cant find now, had no mention to cost. If it's really 14K I guess that's way out of my price range. But seriously, looking at pictures of the new aluminum flathead; is it really a flathead? It's kind of like comparing an S&S "harley style" motor to a actual harley motor. It may look similar, but it's really not the same. Granted one has performance and or durabilty upgrades over the other, but the nostalgia is lost. I would rather find someone making new blocks from copies of vintage tooling and processes to better capture the nostalgia.
There are more efficient boat anchors out there. Million dollar investment for a 100 horsepower engine- the numbers will NEVER add up. As much as I love early Fords don't ever expect that dinasoar to roam free again.
i can find flathead blocks all day, but finding one that can stand up to competative racing (in flathead cl***es) is expensive, frustrating and time consuming. repoped flathead blocks wouldnt be allowed in SCTA flathead (XF) and OHV converted flatheads (**F)... same holds true for the French blocks. try and race in other cl***es that use factory OHV's and you'd be wasting time and LOTS of money.
I can't see anybody putting up the kind of bucks that it would take to m*** produce them. And---There is no market---to speak of. If there was they would go to a segment of the goldchainer crowd who are already in love with the 350/350s. The rest of us would still be dragging them out of the bushes. Now we all love Ford flatheads. I just built two.( I could have built 4 Chevys for the same money). I went thru a few blocks to find a good one. They are ultimate in "cool" in a hotrod but they are a real pain in the *** for all but the most serious of us. How many posts start out with "I just found this really cool flathead. I don't know much about them, I don't have a lot of money but I want to do this, this, and this to it", Just my 2 cents American
I feel sorry for you guys and your lack of good blocks..Ive got three PERFECT 99A blocks, not a crack in one of em. You gots to love mild weather..i bet none of these engines ever saw anything below 10degrees celsius in operation..hence no freezing, no cracks. surely so cal must be full of unfrozen flatty blocks? imean how many MILLION flathead ford motors were produced? ten? twenty? fourty? any one know? reproduction just isnt needed yet. YET
I have heard a "famous" ford performance company has bought a few sets of original flathead molds for the 46-48 & 49-53 blocks this question could be a reality very very soon
Unless they can produce them at a cost to the m***es that would be reasonable to justify the average guy buying one, they are wasting their time even thinking about making a block! Just for comparison sake, look at the Bowtie Chevy block and how much greater the demand is for that particular market, those blocks are over $2K. I don't think anyone could afford to tool up and produce a Flathead block at the same volume that a Bowtie block is available in. Less volume=more overall cost. If a really good Flathead rebuild costs for example $3000-$4000, how many would spend an extra $2K+ at a minimum, just for a new block as the only difference. I like all the old vintage stuff like most people, but it would probably be too rich for me....
Well, Have a look at this recent scenario that one of the locals went thru up here in Canada...... Bob M****r, Retired Businessman (successful Trucking company)... Bob has yards full of semi trucks/trailers and parts ac***ulated over a 40 year period. Along with Bob's semis and what not, he acquired/kept 2 Flathead Ford Trucks. One truck was a 50~ Ford Firetruck in complete condition and ran when parked 30 years ago. Truck number two was a nice 48 Mercury 1/2 ton that he always wanted to restore. ....Around about 1980, he had one of his mechanics pull the flathead out as he planned to get started on restoring the truck. For whatever reason, the project went on hold and the Flathead got set outside in the elements until 2007. Well Bob's retired now and wants to resume work on the truck. There is no shortage of cash but being a 'sound' business man, Bob wanted to rebuild the engine for the lowest cost, just as we all would like to... He took the complete but stuck engine up to our local machinist and had them tear it down and hot tank it, then check it for cracks. As with any block left in the snow and rain for ~25 years, it was well rusted and was a beach to get apart. The machine shop charged him about 7 hours for dis***embly and hot tank with magnufluxing.... That was at $70 an hour so the bill so far was about $500 plus taxes. $500 spent and the block was terminally cracked plus it was one of those odd Ford replacement blocks that was small bore (221 cubes) yet was a 24 stud 46-48 block. OK, $500 spent and Bob has Nothing to show for it. About that time, The machine shop advises Bob that I have a completely machined block with all repairs done and all I want for it is the cost of machining, pinning, and sleeving plus I'll throw in a beautiful standard 3 3/4 crank with a set of new bearings totally free. -This block is a 49+ Ford casting that I had hot tanked several times as I prodded all the p***ages and jackets after the first bath then sent it back after it was internally probed for a second hot tanking. Cost of all machining and several hot tanks was $840 all done up right there at the very same shop Bob had brought his engine to... (And that $840 doesn't include my time or the price of the original flathead as purchased). Bob, being the smart businessman he is says, No way I'm gonna pay you $840 for the machined engine/crank/bearings Because I know a guy with a good flathead for sale for $250. It ran when they pulled it out .......... Ok, whatever I think, go do what you have to do to save your money.... Bob Buys the engine for $250 and has the machine shop tear it down and tank and flux it etc.... That engine came apart more easily as it was a sheltered engine but at the end of the machine shops day, the engine was terminally cracked... cost for engine #2 was $250 plus $ 350 for 5 hours machine shop time ... Total for block #2 $600. Well Bob got smart at this time and decided that he would just take the engine out of the Firetruck (it was a nice original truck that had been over heated then parked) and have the machinist rebuild that one.... Engine # 3 was stripped and magnafluxed for a total of 5 hours shop time or $350.. Cost to get one good block so far .... Engine 1, terminally cracked and no usable parts due to it's small bore) $500 Engine 2, Purchased for $250 and machine shop time of $350 total $600 Engine 3, Good block that came from a decent old fire truck... $350 for dis***embly and ~$500 to pin several cracks and sleeves two cylinders total $850 $500 + $600 + $850 and now Bob has a bare block to start his build with But where is Bob gonna find a decent crankshaft these days that doesn't need a bucket of money to repair... Bob Phones me up and ask if I would like to sell the beautiful 3 3/4 crank that needs no work and would take a standard bearing... I told him $840 and for that I will throw in a machine shop fresh block plus a set of standard main bearings for the crank for free. Bob declined the offer and found a crank for $75 thru a friend of a friend. Cost of machining the Crank and purchasing non standard bearings was about $400. Total spent so far for a bare block with crank and bearings $2450 Plus there is now a parted out neat-o Fire truck in his back yard that would have started and run. This took part over a 14 month period as Bob sourced his parts while saving money. The total cost of the parts plus build with new piston and decent rods/valves etc. was around $7000 which includes the wasted money spent on the first two blocks. I know that most of us are smart enough to tear down our $250 'found' flathead's ourselves but Bob is a retired businessman and can afford to pay the machine shop to do the dirty work. Bob was never a backyard mechanic. ------------------------------------------------------------------- I think that a 2k new block would have saved Bob and a lot of other people time and money but hey, he turned down an excellent fresh Block with crank and bearings for $840... No skin off my nose. About the same time another 'wise' man from Vancouver area told me that ""Not sure where you buy your blocks from but you wanna no something I buy them all day long for $200 and get my machine work done for $500 so dont try and ******** me"" .....I'll give you $350 for your machine shop fresh block etc." That guy was a member here on the hamb... I told him to stick with his 350/350 combo if he wants to be cheap. You should have seen the fur fly after that comment. He recently sold his hotrod 'project' with small block attached and I suspect he went back to his first love, 80's era corvettes. Moral of the story, Many people could save a few dollars and a few headaches if the block was available at $2k in my opinion. But many people see a large or initial outlay as just that.... Large. All the while not fully realizing that it will cost them more in the long run to accomplish a particular (financial) task by taking on the work in smaller "money saving" pieces. I am by no means rich but I if I put in the overtime for 10 or 12 months I could conceivably purchase a new aluminum block for 14k. And a person may or may not head that way. It took me 9 months to pay for a new Brookville roadster body which worked out ok because the wait list for '31 bodies was about 9 months at that time. All a person has to do is put the nose to the grind stone and have a dream of what you'd like to accomplish in the near future with the overtime you put in. I don't think that 2 or 3 K for a new cast steel block or 5K for an improved cast block would be unreasonable but I tend to think of things in hours/months of overtime That I have to work to afford foolish purchases for silly things like all new steel bodies. Is there a market for a new 3 or 5k block ??? That's another story. BTW, I thought that there was to be offered a new short block ***embly with more cubes and improved bottom end for 14k less heads and intake. I could work a year of overtime for that after I finish the next year of overtime for the paint job + another 6 month for the leather interior plus... jmho moe .
?? I think Jack Roush?? is currently dabbling in the performance Flathead field but last I heard it was in the preliminary stages... ... not sure to what extent he is/will be getting involved but there is no shortage of cash in his circle. on the other hand, I do recall that the initial reverse engineering of the Flathead block done by shadow rods was almost $50,000. ..That was just for research and acquiring a blueprint via reverse engineering. ....I was under the impression that escalating developmental costs had kept Mark Kirby/Shadow Rods moving at a snails pace.... Perhaps Roush's piggy bank is bigger and we may see a new performance built flathead crate motors in the future at a price that would be inline with current performance ohv crate motors.. just my humble opinion moe .
There are many people out there that are willing to spend 5 to 20 K for a performance ohv crate motor and in my opinion some would opt for a Flathead crate motor for similiar money. Even if it isn't a real Vintage Flathead, who the hell cares... Neither are the (cringe) billet brackets that hang a polished air conditioning unit from the front of a Flathead. With 300,000,000 people in the USA, there Is a market for anything and everything. I personally like the idea of reverse engineering the Flathead and/or building a better and more flexible flathead capable of larger strokes with improved breathing. I have always applauded those that are spending $$$ in an attempt to re-engineer these great legends. Others don't see it that way but then again, America has 300,000,000 opinions many of them with disposable income. jmho moe .
Slightly exaggerated I'm sure. For me to speculate on how much this would cost would be foolish. Well up there I'm sure but not a million dollars. The boat anchor part well........ if that's what you think. The Flatheads I have and my friends have all pull real nice for "antique" engines conceived in the early 1930's. So many technically superior engines are all but forgotten because of their high cost and relatively small production runs. Flathead Ford engines are not about high rpm horsepower but rather low and mid range torque and they deliver that nicely even in stock form. The engine that Mark Kirby and Shadow Rods is building is a big step up from anything that is acheiveable with a stock block engine. Let's see 100 cubes larger, much lighter, modern crank seals, modern airflow research built in, etc. I don't think this was intended to be just a replacement block. I think it was mentioned that these engines are in the testing process and final dyno figures are soon to come. I believe that they're looking for 275- 300 hp naturally aspirated. What peak horsepower numbers won't tell you is how a torque monster Flathead will pin you in the seat and put a huge smile on your face. I believe this new Flathead will be a hit. I think you'll see this engine not only in high end show cars but also say in a fellow's otherwise stock `40 Coupe. A guy who wants bigger power but won't ruin the car to run a late model engine. The stock engine gets saved and the new aluminum engine provides the smiles. Time comes to sell the car the still fresh original engine goes back in and the new engine is ready for it's next ***ignment. No harm done to the old Ford. I can see this scenario very easily.
There is a member of the HAMB that is indeed watching the response here from the side lines. This individual has invested a couple hundred thousand $'s and is making a dead nuts replacement flathead block, He already had one cast and since he is a machinist as well and he seeing what the reality of bringing this block into production, he is side tracked with another cool product at current time. He and his son have alot of things in the works so keep an eye out. I know that it will be expensive to some,(even to me no less=lol!) but compare it to a $10.00 replacement body from Pico Auto Salvage that became a Hot Rod Cover car(Bob McGee's)in the late 40's to a $10,500.00 Brookville Deuce in millenium. I don't think Brookville is having any problem selling any bodies. Supply & Demand and that's what will get them to the market,IMHO.
JimA, It's not horse power that gets your car down the 1/4 mile , It's torque and the average flathead has plenty. even 165 or 200 foot pounds from a clean mostly stock flathead motivates a model A with results better than a planned obsolescence 350 in a stock 1982 corvette. It all becomes a little more relative when you see model A tailights from the seat of a fiber gl*** coffin. And besides, the flathead is the essence of hotrod History, A hotrod history which does not include corvettes (corvettes are not a hotrod and a deuce coupe is not a 62 nova) But to each there own jmho .
Yep, my feelings too! Whether it's cast from aluminum, (new) cast iron; (old) French, Canadian or American ... I STILL luv 'em!!! Moe, time for another "chicken" break! (on me this time )
Jack Roush is from Manchester, Ohio and every fall they have a car show in that town. Jack always flys over the show, and wiggles his wings, in one of his planes. He then lands it in a field, right across the river, in Kentucky at a farm he owns there. He is then picked up in a new Roush Mustang convertable and delivered to the show. They usually have a small brunch you attend with the $40.00/plate proceeds from the entry fee that go to the town's Christmas decorations fund. The town is 18 miles south of where I live. Year before last I attended the brunch and was fortunate to be seated next to Jack. During the brunch I brought up the flatheads with Jack for discussion. I know he participates in the Great Race each year with a flathead. He told me he has a great fondness for the flatheads. As I had heard he was possibly interested in producing new blocks I ask him point blank; "Are you considering producing flathead blocks?". His answer was "There are a couple of people interested in doing this but I am not interested in it from a Roush standpoint." Has he changed his mind? Don't know but I can ask next year
As Flat Ernie mentioned, there is still too much of an alternative available at a very decent price in the French block for under $2500. And there are still plenty left. Also, too many OEM cores are still available, so paying big bucks for a new block probably will only be for certain people to do. Until the supply of good rebuildable engines and French blocks are depleted entirely, I think that those who are looking to reproduce them are going to be disappointed at how few will actually be sold, unless the cost is compe***ive with what is currently available. Maybe they need to do a test market to see what kind of price the market will bear, and then see if they can indeed provide a finished product in that price range....
Small block Chevies have already reached the point that a new block or a new complete engine is cheaper than a good machine shop rebuild for stock and mild hotrod uses, I think. Cylinder heads for them are in the same boat, dollar-wise. Flathead would be a harder job to cast. I think currrent Chevy block castings include stockers from descendants of factory tooling and stockers reverse-engineered and bootlegged by Chinese, but in the case of the flathead it's pretty unlikely factory tooling is around to give the job a boost. Smaller market, but more upscale and quality conscious than people just needing a new chug for their pickup. French blocks I think would sell out and be permanently gone quickly if dragged out of semi-seclusion and marketed hard. And isn't the biggest stash now being reserved for sale as complete, expensively built engines?? New aluminum block will sell, but is obviously very upscale and is likely unsatisfactory for hard core tradionalists. A true repro iron block would have a different and possibly bigger market...no reason why it couldn't be sold to restorers, and I think new production with a little tinkering could even be sold as a 21 stud replacement for a broader resto market! What price would a stock-looking block capable of accepting all stock oputers have to sell for to be more attractive than the current long, frustrating earch followed by much machine work? Perhaps something with no more changes than a slightly larger bore and a version of the factory inline filter so it could run either stock or full filtered easily? I think that would be very attractive, but actually doing it would be verydamnexpensive and hard.
Not sure why the French blocks are going for $2500 over there. When I was putting together the parts for my Modified T Model Ford a couple of years ago I had the option of a crated complete French Army flathead for £1000 (around $1650 US at that time). Went for a 347 Pontiac complete with manual gearbox instead. Perhaps the difficulty is that hot rodders regard the flathead as iconic and are prepared to pay more. Buy crated NOS flathead from a military vehicle dealer and it is much cheaper.
One of the HUGE tradeoffs is TIME. Purists spend an ubbelievable amount of time hunting parts, many of which will naturally turn out to be s****. People who can use new parts need only the time to read a credit card number into the phone, then they can put the time saved into actual work on the car. Now that LOTS of people are looking for the formerly forsaken old stuff, the long hunt often leads to a part that costs much more than its mailorder equivalent, too! So...the question has TWO components: How expensive could a new iron block be and be cheaper or at least compe***ive with a long hunt, much s****page, and lots of time and money blown not just on searching but dealing with machine work?? AND...how pure would it have to be? What internal and external changes would be acceptable to the seriously disturbed borderline paranoid schizophrenic types known as "traditionalists" and "restorers"?? Me, I'd be looking for something essentially stock, altered only by slightly thicker walls, maybe modest tinkering with ports, stock Ford military oiling system runnable as either normal of full flow...mmmmm...but if it cost $13,000, no. But I can locate a decent core just by tunneling into the s****heap in the ba*****t.
Straying a little OT maybe, but in the mid-70's I worked as a Field Service Engineer and one of my stops was Auburn Gear in Auburn, IN. The company was right around the corner from the ACD museum. When working on a machine in their gear lab, I saw a set of gears in a test machine that looked awfully familiar. I asked the head of the lab and he confirmed they were Model A Ford gears and that Auburn Gear had purchased cutters, & tooling from Ford. Auburn was making the gears and using them in agricultural water pumps. Since I was restoring a Model A at the time and needed a new set of gears, I bought a set of "high speed" ring & pinion gears from them. I even tested the gears myself, after heat treatment. I took them home and installed them in my '29 roadster and they worked great. Only purpose of this story, is to demonstrate how Ford disposed of their old equipment, at least this part of it. Sorry for the ramble - now back to the regularly scheduled postings.........
Some stuff almost had to be kept available for industrial users! Ford kept A, B, and T complete engines in low production (Diamond blocks) until WWII, because many pieces of manufactured machinery, including combines and compressors, were built around the engines and doubtless other parts. Carnival machinery like Merry go rounds used Ford axle gears for 90 degree drives so that bearings and gears could be purchased anywhere on the planet...there must have been a lot of uses like this for many Ford mechanical parts, not improvisations but actual factory built machinery.
Yes, as shortly as a year & a half ago, when I was still in the UK, a complete, crated, new/rebuilt French flatty could be had for £1100-1300. At the time, it was about $2000. The exchange rate has worsened - that same £1100-1300 is now $2200-2600. If I had a way to get one home, one would've come home with me as I had more Sterling than I knew what to do with...from flipping parts. The majority of the blocks over here were shipped in the '90s, then sold & shipped to Halibrand, then Halibrand went bankrupt, so they were "reposessed" & shipped back, then bought by SF Flatheads & shipped to them - somebody's got to pay for all that shipping at some point. I believe Halibrand was selling the bare blocks for $1500-1700 or so, but it's been a while. Now they're $2500 with some minor machining done to them from SF Flatheads. I picked up a new block for $1200 last May in the cl***ifieds.
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