HEMI Tech: Camshafts.. new? Regrind? solid or Hydraulic?

Here's a pic of a herbert lifter for a hemi and an ad for it out of a '53 hotrod magazine.
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I also like the solid/mechanical lifters. I like the noises they make. Maybe this is a good time to shift some conversation to pros and cons of solid lifters for a bit. Besides having to have the right cam to run solid lifters (which just goes without saying), what else besides adjustable pushrods or rockers is really a considering factor for running solid lifters?

 

Only thing I say about solid lifters verses Hydralic lifters is you better have adjustable rockers because the adjustable push rods are a bear to set valve lash compared to adjustable rockers. The adjustable push rods are meant for hydralic lifters with milled heads or block.

 

I've heard this also. Doesn't sound fun to mess with.

I read some stuff in Tex Smith's book about hydraulic vs. solid lifters and it said there is no real advantage, performance wise, for one of the other. The book basically stated that some guys just like the sound vs. the hydraulic. Is this true? Are there any performance or longivity concerns for one over the other?

What's the best to use for pushrods with Hydraulic lifters then?

 

In the old days you couldn't grind as steep of a ramp into the cam on a hydraulic lifter because the lifter would collapse. Now-a-days lifters are good enough to handle the force of a steep ramp cam. Thats why you see the radical hydraulics that are out there today.

Oil has become a little bit of an issue now with the changes mandated by the EPA. I actually had a series of hydraulic lifters (3) fail in a small BBC with a comp cam in it (224 dur @ .050). Correct Spring installed height, correct springs, correct lifters, correct geometry, changed the filter/oil every 1K miles.

I don't mind adjusting valves, it just isn't that big of a deal. I also like grabbing a beer on a saturday and tinkering on an old engine. So I wouldn't put another hydraulic cam in anything I build, street or race. My attitude might change in twenty years though.

So I guess it depends. If you want all-out performance then a solid is for you. If you like the sound and don't mind tinkering then a solid is for you. If you want a street rod then get a hydraulic cam. But I'm biased, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask.

The only real downside to me is that solid lifters have gotten more expensive in the last 4-5 years. I bought a comp cam/lifters for $180 for a SBC last month. Its a 282s. The S is for solid (you guessed it), its 236 @.050 and is now in a 283. It should sound really good. I can't wait to start it.

 

About adjusting. So basically we can assume a solid lifter will require frequent gap adjustment. Playing dumb for a minute (not hard to do) , why would these need frequent adjusting? Or should the question be, why would these need to be adjusted more often then a hydraulic lift assembly? Again, just asking so it's clear.

So, with this being said, the ideal combination for a solid/mechanical lift assembly might be to use adjustable rockers with these to make life a little easier since you will be adjusting more often... if I'm understanding this right.

 

Hydralic lifters once set properly should not need adjustment do to wear because of the operation takes up any wear so adjustment is not needed. With solid lifters it is not, any wear you will need to adjust valve lash more often to keep performance levels with the correct valve lash setting for that cam and lifter combo.

 

well put.

About every oil change (3k miles) you should at least check your valves. I personally don't think the adjustable pushrods are difficult to adjust, although the adjustable rockers are a little easier. Then again, I don't think adjusting your valves is difficult either.

Heres a little tip on adjusting valves. Buy a momentary switch and hook 4ft leads to it with alligator clips on the ends. Hook one lead to power and the other to the starter solenoid.

Make sure the car is in park/neutral. Double check. Make sure the ignition is off. Double check that too.

Now with the valve covers off you can hit the momentary switch to bump the motor over. When I adjust valves I do it right down the line. None of this TDC, then rotate 90, do exhaust #6, intake #4 blah blah bullshit.

It's simple. You want to be on the back of the cam to adjust the valve. So lets say you are on #1 cylinder. Put #1 exhaust fully open by bumping the motor. Now you can adjust #1 intake. Now put #1 intake to fully open and adjust #1 exhaust. Repeat for every cylinder until done.

The only thing to watch out for is that you have the valve opposite fully open. I usually turn the motor through and watch the valve retainer to get an idea for where the fully open point is. If you are way off then you might adjust the valve when you are in the overlap of the cam and will get the valve too loose.

If this is too complicated then go buy a hydraulic cam, take it to your local shop and have them put it in.

 

The lifter bores can be bored out & accept late model Buick-Olds V6 roller lifters. If you use a 354 cam in a 331, a little "ring" spacer is needed to keep the gear fron locking to the block. A long BBC w/p will fit over the '55 OEM timing cover. I got my cam new from Howards through H.H.

 

Tell me more about the ring? Where can I get this? HHH? I'm pretty much planning on a 354 cam for my 331 and this interests me for sure. Is there any other differences I should know about that would effect the cam swap, like oiling or something?

 

I got it from a parts guy. It's fairly small, you can measure the difference of block depth & the timing gear lenth. Bob probably has them. I didn't do anything else as far as changing cams. using 318/340 timing set.

 

Great! Thanks for that bit! I will check with Bob when I buy or regrind my cam. Thanks!

 

Hydraulic lifters..Chrs take pre 68 BB Mopar, Dodge uses LA318 lifters. What does DeSoto use?

 

Marine cams...Keep in mind that these engines can turn either direction. According to a post I saw somewhere they both have different firing orders from each other & the other Hemis reported firing order left hand rotation 1-8-7-2-4-3-6-5, right hand rotation 1-5-6-3-4-2-7-8

 

On Doc Fromader's 315 build on Webrodder, he used LA 318 roller lifters. According to Lundquist's book, lifters interchange between the 3 brands.

 

Easier than that call Chris Nielson , he knows . I got the specs for a 300 cam from him a while back, but I forgot where I put them .

 

have you adjusted adjustable pushrods on a hemi motor?

 

I have!!! PITA - sure I can do it and after a few I even get faster, but gimme adjustable rockers or a hyd. cam anytime - if that makes my VINTAGE gasser a "Street Rod" in some people's eyes then them's the breaks.

 

This is a good method for adjusting valves,but,,,
I disagree on a valve being fully open.(Think overlap again,& the Otto cylce)
My way is one cylinder at a time like yours,spark plugs out,turning engine in direction of rotation..When exhaust valve just starts to open,,,adjust corresponding intake....keep turning.
When intake valve almost closes,,,adjust exhaust.This applies to all Cam profiles,lifters,rockers etc.Base circle is base circle.
We all have different ways of adjusting & thats cool with me.I used to do it just like you until a guy showed me why i shouldn't.,,(mid 70s).

Also,,Chet Herbert sells mechanical roller lifters for the early Hemis.
Heres the part number & it's not a typo..........TVD.
Good thread !

 

FR, Here's yet another way that I've used on ALL engines. Pretty close to your description - matter of fact as I started to read yours I thought you were gonna suggest the same thing....anyways like you said - think of the cycles - intake,compression,power,exhaust when were think of them slightly differently we get compression,power,exhaust,intake - now thinking of the lifters immediately AFTER the intake CLOSES both lifters are on the heel of the cam so rotate motor until you see the cycle complete then adjust BOTH - slightly faster since you do two at a time - can be good when you're in a hurry!

 

Your way is the bomb(best),especially runnin valves on a Nitro engine(in a hurry).

Man this sure got me thinking about things again.
Maybe

 

That is a good way to do it also.

But I don't think that if the valve is fully open you will be in the overlap at all, or even close.

 

alright, I've got a dillema on my hands...I can't decide between a hydraulic or a solid lifter cam...I know these days the power difference is pretty minimal, and being that this motor is being built for a gasser I'd LOVE to have a solid cam in it, but the low maintenance of a hydraulic speaks to the lazy side of me...I've got the stock non-adjustable rockers, and I've heard the adjustable pushrods are a pain in the ass...but I want a solid cam...who still makes them from the old companies for the 331/354? I'm looking for Clay Smith, Isky, Howard, etc...and contact info for Howard would be much appreciated...and if anyone has prices on their Smith/Isky/Howard cams they'd like to share to just get a general idea of prices involved versus buying a PAW or HHH cam...

 

alright, does anyone know who makes cams for the 331/354 anymore? I contacted Isky this morning and I'm waiting for a reply...I've got a phone number for Howards that I'll probably be calling soon...has anyone ordered cams from either of those suppliers recently?

Any other recommendations for cam suppliers you guys can make? I've been looking at the PAW grinds and one of them looks mighty fine for what I'm looking to do, but I have no clue as to the quality of their cams...

 

Desoto lifter discussion
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135862

 

I run a Howard's Cam, got it through Hot Heads (cheaper at the time than direct!) Bob will say that Hemis don't need split pattern cams, any that way are...forgot the exact term used, but it wasn't a thumbs up!

 

HH lists new cams @ 210$. Regrind yours for 125$, most need adjustable rockers or push rods after the regrind. HH has adjustable push rods for 150$. If cam is a 331 & you want to run 318/340 timing set it costs 150$ to modify the snout. Do the math!

 

This is the valve adjustment method most of the racers I worked with used - first write the first half of the firing order over the second half. This example is for chev and chrys V8s.

1843
6572

Rotate engine - watch #6 rockers - when exhaust is closing and intake just starts to open (overlap) adjust both valves on #1. Rotate engine - Watch #5 for overlap - adjust both valves #8 - Repeat through firing order - You have to jump from side to side to make the adjustments but you can run all the valves in just 2 revolutions of the engine.

 

In addition to the nose drive and/or oiling differences between early and late engines, the low deck (301, 331, 354) cams cannot be swapped with high deck (392) cams (nor 276/291 fit 330/341/345 DeSoto, nor 241/259/270 fit 315/325 Dodge, &c.).
The tappet bank angle was changed when the raised deck was introduced, and the lobe "clock" position vs. the tappet were both changed. If the cams are swapped the offset error is added to one bank and subtracted from the other, so it can't be corrected by re-indexing.

 

If memory is still good, RACER BROWN fills all orders with one heck of a quality product. They ARE the original cam folks for Chrysler products, never have failed me. Over 10 engine builds and counting. Inspector Mopar