I have to jump in here.....I have been lurking and watching the discussions here. Most of you know that my ha/gr car was the first real dragster that I had ever built or driven on a track. I had a blast building it, made a lot of friends, and even ended up with a trophy. I recently sold it due to family obligations....but that is another story. These topics of how fast they should be allowed to run and other technical arguments are, in my opinion, ruining the class. While my experience is limited, I don't believe anyone who follows the current rules and doesn't spend 10's of thousands of dollars will ever get a true ha/gr sub 10.99. If anyone does they are either cheating or building a car for the wrong reasons. If an E.T. limit needs to be set to help guys run on nhra tracks then so be it. Those that think they can build an ha/gr that will go faster than 10.99? I HIGHLY doubt you can and stay in the era/spirit. Since I have been involved with these cars I have seen them run anywhere from mid 12's to 19's. After extensive tuning and tweaking, most cars are relatively consistent in the low 13's to high 12's. I doubt, though, you could ever be competitive in a bracket race with these cars. With the technology in this class it is not uncommon to see a car that made a low 13 last pass run a 14 or 15 the next pass due to a missed shift or other reasons. There have been a couple of cars that have made it into the 11's, but they are not ha/gr cars but rather SDRA cars that have allowed for a few more modern parts. No offense to the SDRA guys, but for a ton of reasons they chose to create a new class with different rules. Anyone can create a set of rules and build cars to their rules so I don't have any animosity towards them and even ran my ha/gr car all last year in the SDRA racing series. The spirit of drag racing is to push you and your car as far as you can, but the people involved in this class must understand that there are limitations to keep the cars in the spirit of those late 40's early 50's cars. The evolution of the dragster made so many huge advances over the years and cars quickly advanced in both speed and E.T.'s. This class can't evolve like that. As soon as you try and evolve it you have moved the era up a few years and now you are into diggers, slingshots, etc. Don't try and make an early rail with the driver and engine between the axles and a single hoop evolve. At that point it is no longer a part of this tribute to those late 40's early 50's rails. The class will always be competitive and fun if you stay within the current rules. I am sure the rules will evolve for safety a little, but ALWAYS remember the era these cars are a tribute to. There is probably room for safety improvements in the class. We don't want anyone hurt or dead. That is obviously not the point I am trying to make. If you want to build a dragster to tribute a different era, or to go as fast and quick as you can then you should think about NOT building an ha/gr dragster. I am not trying to be an ass, but rather to get everyone to look at your reasons for building a dragster. There are a ton of nostalgia classes out there, and even more classes available if you want modern stuff. It is natural to ask questions and attempt to determine what is and is not acceptable for this class as some of the rules are fairly vague. I don't think anyone should be hammered for asking a rule related question. Just look at the reasons you are asking the question. Are you trying to squeak something in that evolves your car past the era? I think most of you know if your ideas are in the spirit of this class or if you are trying to evolve your car. Again, these cars CANNOT evolve like cars have over the years. The class is permanently fixed in a specific era. The current rules allow you to build to your imagination and even to push you and your car to be fairly quick so have fun with it. I assure you there is a lot of fun to be had and plenty of room for these cars to be competitive. Well, this was a long rant......but that is my .02 cents.
An excellent report on the purpose and meaning of HA/GR, in my humble opinion. I'm the guy that keeps referring to bracket racing a HA/GR. Yeah, I realize the inherent inconsistency of the very design and know one would not be a successful bracket car. But, for me, in my area, if I show up at the dragstrip as a lone HA/GR car, I need to run in some bracket or class. that way I get my time trials in and most likely a first round loss. Generally, you can buy your way back in for a few bucks and get another run or two. Winning or losing is practically meaningless to me. Getting into the track, passing tech and being allowed to run it is all I'm after. I agree, I don't think faithful HA/GR cars will run real quick. For that reason, I'm supportive of an e.t. limit at or around what the best HA/GR's are now running, in order to get these cars accepted at NHRA tracks. At the HAMB drags and the other places you lucky southern mid-America guys get to run, you don't need to worry so much about the damn rulebook sitting right next to my keyboard.
Very well stated sgtmcd. The HA/GR rules speak for themselves and were not intended to build land missiles. It's a fun period correct dragster as it would have been.
Well stated. This whole thing is about the spirit. Yes, there will be competition, always has been, always will be, but it needs to be in the category of what we can achieve within the spirit. Hot Rodders have always found a way to get the most out of what they have to work with. Keeping to the rules as written and the class as it is envisioned should not need major regulation to make it work. I have no problem with those who want to go faster and or quicker, but let us run with our limitations to the spirit and period that we are representing. Racing will always be racing, but personally I am quite happy to build and race the way it was in the '50s, low buck, scrounged parts and more fun than a person should be allowed to have. If I happen to win now and then.......what a wonderful reason for a party after the races, we'll get some extra burgers for the BBQ and have a ball.
I raced a 1958 315 hp Biscayne in Super Stock in 1958 and 59. The rules at that time was you could run headers and that was it everything else was factory. If the car came frome the factory with 750X14 bias ply tires then you could run 800X14 not 850X14. I took my engine apart and had it balanced and valves done by Don Nicholson and it ran low 14's and some times high 13's and everyone else ran the same. Most races were won by 2 or 3 feet, usually both drivers could look across at each other. By 1963 these same cars were going 104 and 13 flat. Why because the rules were changed to wrinkle wall slicks and you could run any flat tappet cam you wanted. The car had to run stock intake manifold and no head porting was allowed. Things have a way of evolving and we need to adhere to the spirit of this class and keep them like they are. Our dragsters would look good with a set of pie edge slicks but it would be a step up and I'm against that. I raced Super Stock for 2 years then a couple of gassers and then finally a slingshot. If we need to go faster move out of this class and build another car. I would like the car to be accepted anywhere in the U.S.A. but I think that we will be placed with a limit on the ET. Just like if you have a car that runs in the 11's then it must have a roll bar. I would love to go to Bakersfield CA and run at the March meet. MO-KAN and OZARK are non NHRA tracks and they are a little more lenient. I guess I'm long winded here but I agree with the author of this thread. Roy
Very well said! I guess I get involved too much at times and I posted almost the same thing in the post on fuel delivery. I agree wholeheartedly with sgtmcd42, and I hope to see you at the track in another HA/GR in the next year or two.
Guys, I must have a problem communicating and spelling, for that I apologize. However, to clearify my position, I want to state once and for all time that I agree completely with the concept of the HA/GR's and don't want to change a thing about them except some things regarding safety: The rule allowing 24" of rubber fuel line. The rule about firewalls should read "metal firewall" because someone could/would build one out of plywood or fiberglass. Any other safety issues not acceptable to NHRA (fuel lines is a perfect example). For those that haven't read Smokey's book, he made a point that if the rules didn't specifically say you couldn't do something, it was legal. However, loop holes in the HA/GR rules may not be acceptable to NHRA rules. When the HA/GR rules were written I don't think enough thought was given to the fact we could/would be racing at NHRA tracks across the country (hopefully) and the tech inspectors can and will tear your ass up on any small point. I'd suggest anyone building a car that could/would be racing on an NHRA track read their rule book and cover their ass by meeting NHRA rules. I DO NOT WANT TO RUN SLICKS, FUEL INJECTION, BLOWER, NITRO, ALCOHOL, PANTHER PISS OR ANYTHING ELSE NOT COVERED IN THE PRESENT RULES. BUT I DO WANT TO BE ABLE TO MEET THE NHRA SAFETY RULES AND I SUGGEST THE REST OF YOU ALSO MEET THEM IF YOU PLAN TO RACE AT THEIR TRACKS. THATS ALL I'M TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH. I personally don't give a damn if someone wants to run 8 feet of rubber fuel line wrapped around their exhaust. I'm just trying to make life a little easier for those that want to race at NHRA tracks, or tracks that follow NHRA rules. Believe me, not many tracks are as easy as MoKan. And you can bet your sweet ass that I'll be trying to go as quick as I can...thats the way I am. If our car runs 13's, I'll be trying to get in the 12's, then the 11's, etc. I think I'm a good engine builder, had a good chassis built and I DON"T CHEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RON
Ron I'm not implying anything about what you are trying to do with NHRA. I applaud what you are doing and will back you. I do think that in order to get these cars accepted we will have an ET cap on them. I don't care what the cap is although I would like to see it 10.99 but 11.99 is a start. I think that we are all saying the same thing except we are all concerned about the erosion of the rules in the future. I know you are not advocating changing the rules so we can meet a certain ET. If we can all remember we are in this together and we are all friends striving for the same goal, to have a place to race. I would hope that we can all take a deep breath and laugh about how passionate we are about this sport.Roy
Roy, I think my passion for this sport exceedes my diplomatic and communication skills. I'm often guilty of opening my mouth and inserting BOTH feet. My wife says I'm just old and grouchy. I think she may be right. Ron
I check in every once in a while just to see if anything has changed. Its like beating your head against a wall...it feels so good when you stop.
Here's the roll cage for front engine dragsters that run 10.00 OR SLOWER. This is from the 2007 NHRA rule book. My assumption is that HA/GR cars will be considered front engine dragsters that run 10.00 or slower by NHRA. I think this is the biggest point of contention the HA/GR owners will have with NHRA. In my opinion there is no way to utilize this cage arrangement and retain the spirit of HA/GR cars. I can't find any alternatives in the rule book. I'm assuming this is an issue that Ron will be covering with the NHRA Divsion Director. So, what is needed is a roll bar configuration that HA/GR cars can utilize that retains the spirit of the class and NHRA will permit them to run X.XX seconds or slower. The rest of the rules pertaining to slow front engine dragsters shouldn't be a stumbling block.
I knew it was probably going to be a mistake to post all that. Oh well. It was not meant as an attack on anyone, but rather just a summation of my thoughts. Good luck to all of you.
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