I am installing juice brakes on my Model A. I pulled the rearend out, took it apart, cleaned it and put it back together. This was a running/driving rear end, but I have run into a couple problems while trying to put it back together. First, on both sides, the backing plates sit inward more at the top than the bottom (see first pic). Both sides do this the same ammount, so I am thinking maybe this is how they will sit. Second, the p***anger side drum will slip on and off, rotate free and fine With the drum off the axle will move up/down, side to side freely (normal). On the drivers side however, the axle will not move much with the drum off. When I go to put the drum on, ot goes on fine about 75%, then stops. If you look at the end of the axle/drum, you can see the axle is off to the side, will not "float" to the center and follow the tapper of the drum. I can draw the drum on all the way, does not take much force, but the drum is extremly hard to rotate. I tried both drums, even the stock model A drum, same effect. So I am thinking it is definetly the rear end, not the brake componets. What can cause this? I asked the guy that put it together, he said he checked the axles for straitness and they look fine! I don't know what to do next!!!!! Any advise or thoughts???
thats one i havent seen before. id say something was out of whack in the differential. if you had someone else work on it, bring it back cause something is ***embled wrong.
Bent backing plates seem like the culprit to me. Flip them UPSIDE down to see if "they" are the issue or the flange on the housing is. If they look the same after flipping them - then it's the flange. If the "gap" moves to the opposite side then it's the backing plates. I'm no banjo expert, but I don't recall mine having any "odd" gaps - makes no sense to me that Ford would have done that.
Yeah, backing plates are first area to investigate. They could bend very easily on a rear being dragged around in a junkyard or fleamarket.
I'm going to go with bent axle or bent axle tube.. I don't see how backing plates can move the axle inside the tube.
The backing plates are irrelivent to the axle problem- 2 different problems. Even with the backing plates off the hub is tight! The backing plates are not a big issue, I just didn't know if they are suppost to sit like that or not. The axle is the real concern. I called the guy who put it together, he said everything looked fine when he put it together. The rear was fine while under my A, I just took it apart, cleaned it, and had him put new seals in and set the clearance when putting the tubes back on. Thanks for the help so far
Bruce, every question I ever had on here, you ALWAYS reply with helpfull info. I appriciate it very much
The axle bit is indeed interesting. Take it apart! Note that you will NOT have setup problems if innards are OK, as you will not disturb pinion and if you measure the side gaskets, you can just replace with the same. SOMETHING is odd in there. Before it comes apart, clamp two stright rods or something to brake flanges on axle tubes so you can clearly see if they are canted by comparing the two rods...and maybe even clamp something like 2 carpenter squares to the hub bearing surfaces of the axle tubes. Hard to imagine tube bending, though I guess it can be done, and I suspect end forgings might be more malleable than the tube... Once you have visuals on the tube ends, rip into the thing and see what's what.
Thanks Bruce. He said it took no gaskets, has a little wear. He just put a little seler on the tubes and put it back. I din't want to thow a whole ton of cash at the thing, just clean it up and out hydrallic brakes on it. I am on my way to Portland for the swap meet, so hopefully will look into it Sunday. I will try the strait edge trick first!
No gaskets, just goo...to set gear clearances?? This sounds dodgy as hell, even ignoring slop greater than thinnest available gasket. Scrutinize axle bell to banjo flange, cutting away extruded goo if necessary. Betcha it set up on a lump of hardened goo and is canted right there! Don't let this guy near your Tinker Toys again! Everybody knows tha DUCT TAPE is precisely the right thickness to set up a Ford ring and pinion...sheesh.
I don't know why it would have been fine in one car and not the next one. Do you think it got dropped on the end, causing something to bend? Either the end of the axle or the end of the tube?
Thanks Bruce, it was actualy a place called the Antique Auto Ranch, they have set up litterally hundreds of T and A axles. This is why I hate hiring things done, and wish I knew how to do this myself. I rarley have anything done for me, but every once in a while I just plain won't know how to do things myself!!!!
Locate actual trouble, studying straight edges clamped on AND the highly su****ious joint at banjo. Once you locate whatever is not parallel to the rest of the universe, we can talk you through setup. Original Ford gears generally are HIGHLY precise and go togehter right with just the standard gasket thickness in many cases. Basically, you choose gaskets that give correct endplay of differential on its side bearings, then check gear lash. If lash is wrong, thicker gasket on one side and thinner on other moves it as needed without mucking up first setting.
Chris, you are right on about having someone else do things for you. I'll trust anothers work so far until it doesn't square up right. I've learned a lot about doing things the right way due to other peoples mistakes. I'd get yourself a copy of the Model A Ford Mechanics Handbook or some of the restoration books published by the Ford Clubs then do it all yourself.
I actually just talked to a friend of mine Tim. I didn't know it, but he has been setting them up for years. He thinks the problem is the inner axle bearing or race is either ****ed to one side or the two are pressed way to hard together. He also said he has fixed many mistakes on rear ends from the place that I took mine to. He is going to help me look at it and see if we can figure out the problem. He also agreed with Bruce in that it should have gaskets on the insides of the bells. He said he'll show me how to do it, so next time I'll just do it myself Wish I had heard this about a week ago!!! I am going to bring it to him early next week, I'll post what we find! Rotorwrench- thanks for the input. I would LOVE to learn how to do this, I just hate gini-piggin things like this, it's my one and only rearend, I would hate to ruin or damage it. So I spend $$$ to have a "pro" handle....been there done that now Hopefully though I will learn a thing or two!
Ok, finally got it broke apart last night. Everything looked good, it just needed some gaskets to shim it out a little. After that it turns a lot better (less restrictive). The end play is good, and all in all my friend Tim said it was ready to go. I get home, go to slip the drum on and the same thing as before- it will go on 3/4 of the way and stop. I can tap it on, and it tuns fine when in place. Both drums feel like they turn with the same resistace. Is this normal (or at least runable) for a 3/4 floating rear end?
One of the final tests is turning both drums in same direction, needs two people...this should feel a bit stiff from the preload on inner carrier bearings, not from any resistance out at wheel bearings. Is what you are feeling notchy/irregular or smooth resistance all the way around? Is anything still tilted and do drums seem to be bad fits on the axles??
It did take both of us to check it. When turning, they both went the same direction with ease. Nothing felt notchy/ratchety or stiff. Both drums fit the p***anger side well (pops on and off), but the drivers side is the one that either drum has to be "walked" on. Once on it rotates fine, nothing sticky at all. I think it will be fine to run, I really just do not understand what is going on. You can grab both axles (with the drums off) and wiggle them around (***uring they are not bound up), but the drivers side does not move as much as the p***anger side...maybe this has to do with the ring gear being mounted on that side??? Axle does not appear to be bent, it rotates strait and true.
You have to do that to clear the spring perches when installing hydrallic brakes on a Model A rear end
OK...the turning by two people should be a bit stiff but smooth. I still think check those housings...clamp on a couple long pieces of angle iron or something where backing plates go, once with both pointing up, once with them parallel to the world, so you can see if anything is out of shape. What happens if drums are swapped side for side?? Any difference? Clamp the two angle irons to drum wheel surfaces...see anything odd?? Check both drum wheel surfaces with an Okie Dial indicator, too. Block axle off floor level on two stands. Place a screwdriver on another platform so it almost touches flange surface. Turn drum, watch gap between screwdriver and surface.
HAHAHA. Yes, when both people turn the axles they turn smoth but have resistance (feels normal). I will check everything for straitness tonight. When we put it together yesterday I was an idiot and did not take the drums, so thought we had it all ironed out until I went to put it together later. I tried swapping drums, both do the same thing on each side. I had to have the drums machined to fit the backing plates, as well as turned, and the guy who did them said they were strait. I'm gonna have to check everything, I have a felling somthing aint right. Even though it turns OK, I don't think it's suppost to be hard to get a drum on/off
With the bare axles (no hubs) not turning the same, could the problem be the seal just inside the outer flange? Maybe one seal is crooked, or tighter than the other side? Or maybe one is missing? Did you check the housing snout carefully for burrs or gouges that would keep the bearing from sliding on the same? Slightly out of round? Are the bearings originals or repros? I've heard some repro rear hub bearings are no good.
Good call Alchemy! I had new seals installed bythe first guy, I'll check them tonight! I checked the snouts and they "look" good, I'll have to come up with a measuring tool to see if they are round or not. The bearings are orriginal and in good shape. I just thought of something. I have another good axle housing half, maybe I should try bolting it on and see if that makes a differenc. That would elliminate a lot of possibilities. If I did end up running another half (in theory) would I have to re-check the clearances again, or would I be able to bolt another side on and run??? Just asking!
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