I Need some "Splainin" done on 3 key slot Timing gears!!!

I'm faced with a bit of a dilemma... I'm installing a different cam in the 455 Olds engine and I was told by "Luanati" tech to set the cam up at 104 degrees off the intake(?)!

Why was this was recommended when the cam comes out with 108 degrees of lobe separation?

Does this affect the Horsepower or torque?

Does it make it more or less agressive?

Now I normally buy a Hot cam I usually just line up the marks and ****on it up and run... and I've never had to use a degree wheel when I've done this!

Could someone explain how to do this using the three keyed crank gear with markings of "A", "0", &"R"?

Currently I put the crank keyway in the "A" groove and I'm not getting the compression I should and it sounds like the air is directly compressing out the exhaust and it doesn't start!!!!

Could I just line it up like I normally do by putting the keyway in the "0" position and line up the marks???

Help!!!

 

Th "A" stands for advance, the "0" stands for no advance/retard and the "R" stands for retarded. These are of co**** in reference to the timing. There will be a set of these markings on both gears. There should be a card or paperwork that tells you how much of each is "built" into the gear set. In order to get the 108 deg specified, you will need to get the cam degreed by a knowledgable individual.

 

Lobe seperation and camshaft timing are two different measurements. I hope this cam card attachment works. You set the camshaft up off of cam timing and not lobe seperation.
Also, when you change the groove on the crank gear, there is a matching letter on the cam gear to match it up with. Most cams are real close to right if you install them "straight up"- 0 on both gears.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=372169&d=1193958465

 

You might check out post 20.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215715&showall=1

 

There were no other marks on the cam gear... that's what was baffling me besides not knowing if a "Platypus is a Marsupio... or a mammal"....!!!

What would it hurt if I just put it in "0" and line up the marks and run it???

 

Every engine I built was put together like this. If it's not a race motor, it'll be ok. Never had any problems with mine.

 

If you'll look real close at the cam gear it's got to have the A and R stamped on it to match the A and R key slots on the crank gear. If it doesn't, you will HAVE to use the O on the crank gear and the original dot on the cam gear. If you use the A or R slot on the crank gear and try to line it up with the dot (or 0) on the cam gear, your cam timing will be far enough off that the engine won't run. It can even be far enough off that the valves will bump the pistons.
And yea, if you don't want to degree the cam, O and O are usually close to right. I have never installed a cam advanced or retarded using the 3 slotted gear. Straight up is close enough.

 

As stated before.... the three positions on the lower gear are for changing where the intake lobe is timed (degreed) not the lobe seperation. Lobe seperation is ground by the cam grinder and cant be changed.
Lunati is simply asking you to advance your cam by 4 degrees to make the power curve a bit lower and more street friendly.
If you dont degree the cam (with the zero marks) first you will have no idea were the cam is to start with... and NO they are seldom right when checked.
I think for your case just use the zero key and install it... unless you have a friend with a degree wheel and dial indicator who can degree it in for you.
As a side note, I have found over the years that the advance and retard key positions rarely degree out to what they are advertised at.

 

A platypus might be a Marsupial(sp) Mr. Nuts but here checked it, just for you your special.

A semiaquatic egg-laying mammal that frequents lakes and streams in eastern Australia. It has a sensitive pliable bill shaped like that of a duck, webbed feet with venomous spurs, and dense fur.
platypus
Also called duckbill , duckbill platypus , or duck-billed platypus . • Ornithorhynchus anatinus, the only member of the family Ornithorhynchidae, order Monotremata.

Peace Cracka.

Jerome

 

Here is an fool proof way to get the cam in . The way to check if your in the ballpark is have the intake off. Install cam gears and chain with cyl #1 and #6 at top dead center. Insert lifters in for #1 and #6 , cylinder #6 should have both lifters DOWN, it just fired. Cylinder #1 should have both lifters UP---its at TDC IN OVERLAP. The intake lifter should be about .030 higher than the exhaust--- check with a stright edge and feeler . Plus or minus .005 (.025- .045 ) is ok---if the exhaust lifter is higher you are off---revamp the chain in new position and do it again. This method works just fine ,,without all those messy dial indicators. Next thing you will be drinking rocket fuel for breakfest--go get it!!

 

well mark? git er runnin?

progress reports dude, we demand progress reports

 

Thanks for the spellin corektin!!!!

I had Monotremata once.... but the Doctor jus called it Mono...!

Monotreme

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Cite This Source

Monotremes (from the Greek monos 'single' + trema 'hole', referring to the cloaca) are mammals that lay eggs (Prototheria) instead of giving birth to live young like marsupials (Metatheria) and placental mammals (Eutheria).

They are conventionally treated as comprising a single order Monotremata, though a recent cl***ification proposes to divide them into the orders Platypoda (the Platypus along with its fossil relatives) and Tachyglossa (the echidnas). The entire grouping is also traditionally placed into a subcl*** Prototheria, which was extended to include several fossil orders but these are no longer seen as cons***uting a natural group allied to monotreme ancestry. A controversial hypothesis now relates the monotremes to a different ***emblage of fossil mammals in a clade termed Australosphenida. An infant monotreme is known as a puggle. Monotremes are a**** the small number of mammalian species known to be capable of electroreception.

Thanks Jerome... I was staying up all night worrying about this "One Hole" creature!

Didn't get it runnin since I posted this question at 11:30 last night...!

Now I've got to head out to work... Later all you Monotremata's...!

Should I say... Later all you Puggles!!!

(An infant monotreme is known as a puggle.)

 

too many multi syllable words for me.

 

You asked what it affects. You are basically adjusting when the cam comes in. Advancing the cam will give you more grunt off the bottom. Retarding will give you more pull on the top end. On our race cars we have a limited number of gear selections. The adjustable cam pulleys are like making a slight gear change.

 

if you see a puggle, get on your knees and make him a monotreme

 

Yea, but if you want a cam to work, say from 2500-5500, you need a cam that is ground to work in that rpm range. You can "fudge" it a little bit by advancing or retarding the cam, but you can't change the whole profile of the camshaft. And to make things even cloudier, some cams are ground with advance (or, I ***ume, retard) built into them. It's just another reason to check everything when you put an engine together. It's kinda hard to figure out what to change if you don't really know what you've got to start with.
Larry T

 

He is correct. Cam cards are worth their weight in gold. You can't make a wholesale change, but a slight one. It may not even be noticeable under easy daily driver conditions. We can tell a difference because the engine is pushed to it's limits every time it's run.

 

you gotta watch out for the spurs on the platipi.

hind legs, that ole duck beaver don't play holmes.... nasty.

I'm so glad we're clear on that. Not enough people know about it.

 

Heard that the Spurs are "Poisonous"!

Anyone know how Platypus taste???

The cam is perfect for me in it's "0" position but everybody else thinks that it may be a tad too much for the street... the optimum range is 2,100- 6,000 rpm= Fun in a 1,800 pound car!

 

The "0" position is usually almost dead on the recommended center line for the cam.

 

On the first post of yours the lobe seperation and the center line are 2 diff things. Lobe sep is the degrees the 2 lobes are apart at max lift. Intake center line is max lift point of intake lobe only at max lift. I pulled a gear of the shelf just to look at the marks. If you use the advance keyway you can't use the original mark on the gear. There are 3 spaces to the left of the keyway. Place the gear on the crank in the advance pos and count 3 spaces to the left,this is were the mark should be.The spaces are the area in between the teeth. Put a mark on the gear with a magic marker and line it with the top gear. This will be 4 deg adv. I would then degree the cam using the lobe center method. If you don't know how to do this pm me and I can help you through it.

 

taste like chicken.

but don't eat those spurs cause yes, they are poisonous.

You got a manual or an A/T behind that lumpity bumpity cam?

might think about a little stall if you're running an automatic.

 

Ahh **** I forgot about that chicken thing>>>>.

 

my 4 year old son is constantly inventing new hybrid animals, these are imaginary animals that he has reportedly spotted in our yard at home. One is the "chicken buck" which of course is half chicken, half deer.... and the other one he talks about a lot is the dredded "leapord squirrel" You have to watch out for the leapord squirrel because I guess he will "lep on you"

Both of these animals taste like chicken acording to Joey.

So I'm just asuming that the duck beaver must also taste like chicken...

 

I don't know what I was thinking. Smeels like fish!! Taste like chicken!!! You gotta love the imagination of a four year old.>>>>.

 

if everything tastes like chicken, how do we know what chicken tastes like?

 

yo Don Wow, check your email, I just sent you one- re: Rocket Olds

 

While we are out in left field here. Everything taste like chicken right!!! Then answer this **** for me. If a orange is a orange how come a apple is not called a red??? This **** drives me crazy>>>>.

 

A secondary issue is piston to valve clearance. When you advance a cam, the intakes can get too close, if you retard, the exhausts do the same. It is a good idea to degree the cam, then check PV clearance even straight up, but do it again if you advance or retard it. The character that you create moving the intake centerline around needs to be understood. On a 108° lobe separation angle with a 455 I don't think torque will be a problem. You just need to be careful not to push the power band too high, really 5200-5500 is about as high as they need to go.

Many cam companies grind advance into their cams to allow for chain stretch, and when they say install at 104°, they may mean dot to dot, otherwise you are advancing it to 100° at the A mark. Degreeing is the only way to know for sure. A 108° "straight up" means there was no advance ground in, you are at 108° intake centerline and 108° separation. If the card says 104° intake centerline and 108° LSA in the specs, it is likely that the advance was ground in and you need to use the 0 key way. In any event, degreeing (at the least and most likely plenty adequate using the centerline method as described if your cam grinder is pretty accurate) and checking the piston to valve clearance are important steps in mock up in case you need to fly cut the pistons for clearance. Bending a valve isn't hard to do.