Progress #2 - 1st Flattie Teardown - OMG!!!! -

no worries man, you helped me so just returning the favor. glad we got that thing torn down, nasty as it was its almost there. should look like new when you get it back and be screaming down the road in no time.

and as far as the help goes a itemized bill is in the mail.

 

DOH!!

 

that oil pump idler gear is pressed on and you can get or make a little connector that threads into the gear and to the end of a slide hammer,then you can pull it out....usually the bushing is good forever,but if you tank the block with the gear intact,it'll destroy the bushing

you guys will have alot more fun when you're messing with cleaned parts

 

A shortcut on figuring out how to hook the gear shaft to a slide hammer: It has a common internal gear, mebbe 3/8 co****, I'm at work and can't go look...
Get an all thread that size, a couple nuts, and some big washers at Home Despot. Use the filthy cluster gear you now own or any other weighty chunk of material with a hole in it as the slide, and you now have a dirt cheap instantly manufactured special tool.

 

Okay, I tallied up what Im going to need and I then fell out of my chair. Well Damn, I need about $1500 in parts and maybe, just maybe the ole' Merc. Flattie will roar!!!!
(if anyone has any spare parts to sell, boy would I be appreciated!!!)

One inportant question is the oil pump. I started to clean it up. Should I dis***emble it and put it back together? I has hardly any excess play in it. I do notice the shaft being a bit dirty. I figured if I pull it apart, I would clean it up w/ a "green pad" and put it back together. What do you think?

One question on the valves; All of the valves came out of the block very clean, no burrs or ridges that did not allow it to slide through the guides. Can these be reusable? I do believe that someone indicated that the exhaust can be reused, but the intake valve should be replaced. I would do a lap grid for each valve before I installed them. Here is a pict of most of the valves. The typical sediments are on the valves, but will clean easily. The shafts are clean w/ the exception of the ends and under the valve tops.

 

Yeah, flattie parts while available, aren't all that cheap. You've got to decide what kind of engine you want when you're done.

You could probably get away with re-using the oil pump, but what are you saving in the grand scheme of things? Think what you'll have invested in the engine & then see if saving that $80-100 was worth it. That's one of the most important parts of your engine. You probably don't need the high volume pump - a good 8BA pump should be plenty for a street engine. Just my $0.02.

You can reuse your valves if they're straight (probably are) - if you put a mild cam in, you've got to have adjustable lifters. The challenge with re-using original valves is the adjuster screws may end up very far out of the lifter with stock valves (depending on the cam) - the Chevy valves are about 0.300" longer (if memory serves...) & that helps keep the adjuster screw down in the lifter. You don't need pro-flow stainless valves - good quality stock replacement valves for SBC should be very cheap. If you're doing that, I'd recommend 1.6" on intake - leave the exhaust 1.5".

You can do the grunt work yourself - most of the good flathead books have extensive sections devoted to porting & relieving. Decide what kind of engine you're building & balance it with how much labor you want to invest - you can do most (if not all) of it yourself. The latest research from folks like Joe Abbin suggest relieving doesn't help as much as originally though & clearancing the head over the intake valve helps a lot more. But cleaning up the ports is something very do-able in the home/hobby shop as long as you're not striving for all-out compe***ion.

These are just my opinions. You'll likely get plenty of others.

Hope this helps - good luck & keep the faith!

 

Valve reuse depends on condition of seat area, either as is or after grinding that still leaves a margin at top, AND on clearance in valve guide/wear on stem. If this is loose, valve can't seat accurately or consistently and oil goes through the guide as well. If the stuff measures OK, there's no reason to replace. A useful test is to drop guide and valve pair back into engine when clean, lift to approximate normal lift, and check side wobble. There should be very little. "Very little " can be quantified and measured, but I don't have any books here. You may find that much of what you have is OK--get hold of a Ford manual and carefully measure ring groove clearances, study cylinder condition, and so on. You may only need rings and some seat work if all is within spec. If your block is old enough to have hardened seats, those will likely need only minor touchup, and original valves are pretty tough too. Cams are usually OK, but you need a hot one anyhow...
Oil pump if not worn should be reuseable--end clearance can be blueprinted with just a flat plate and some sandpaper. Be sure you have the early 1950-53 one with spiral gears, not a '49.

A good source of stuff, also capable of giving good advice:
http://www.reds-headers.com/

The most needed parts kits are on his site--remember, if you are on a tight budget, there's no reason whatever to replace anything that's within spec. Beyond spec, you're in a rapidly darkening gray area leading to wasted time and parts...
Be sure to carefully keep parts together and unmixed--used stuff should go back where it was.

 

Chopped, a couple of thoughts.
The one picture showed broken rings. They might have been broken when the piston(s) were removed from the block. (you mentioned a "lip" at the top of the cylinder) Examine the ring groves on the pistons; if the rings broke during dis***embly; they might have damaged the ring lands.

The first big decision will "hinge" on cylinder wall taper. If they ARE tapered, THEN A REBORE and NEW pistons and rings will "top" the list of MUST DO'S.

NOW; the next decision will be a crank regrind and new bearings.

You mentioned "a copper color on the crank journals." this could be from LACK of OIL (partly plugged crank oil journals) and/or excesive heat. (the copper color is the bearing overlay breaking down)

Even if the crank and bearings are Reusable (which I doubt they will be, and I wouldn't chance it)

MAKE SURE TO PULL THE SLUDGE TRAPS (4) OUT OF THE CRANK AND DO A GOOD CLEANING!!

NEXT RECOMENDATION; if you need to bore the engine, (you will have a NEW set of pistons and rings) along with the crank reground and new bearings, (both mains and rods)

DO YOURSELF AND THE ENGINE A FAVOR:
GET THE CRANK AND RODS BALANCED!!!

 

My plan at this point is having the crank re-ground. There were some visible scratches (more than ordinary). I will have it mic'ed first just to see for sure of any damage or oblongation. The rods too will be surfaced as well. So, new bearings for the mains, rods will be in order.

Secondly on the list: I will have the motor bored (after a mic'ed to ensure its needed.) for new pistons. The cylinders had a pretty healthy lip on the end of the cylinders. Enough for your fingernail to catch. New pistons and rings are in order. What are the odds of re-using the stock pistons, in consideration of the bore size?

Thridly: My plans for the valve train are to reuse the keepers and minor parts. I will put new guides, springs, seal and valves if needed. As for the intake (chevy 1.6) valve, do the seats need to be redone or is 1.6 the stock size?

Again, my plan for the motor is to run it stock w/ a mild cam and dual 94's. Longevity is really what I want, not extreme power.

 

All the things that go out in an engine--taper, worn ring grooves, guide wear and so on have a pretty clear limit, set by Ford and in the shop manual. There are procedures there that you can do yourself with just feeler gauges and plastigauge and such to see where you are. You don't want to go beyond the wear limits because at that point you are mostly throwing good money after bad, fixing stuff that's declining faster than you can fix. Within spec--let's say, for example, you have some taper (you obviously do) but it's within the allowable wear limits--you have to make your own personal choices about the cost difference between good enough and getting it back to just right.
Buying a dial indicator and stand, plastgauge, and a micrometer might be a good investment here--you can make your own determinations on those things like valves and guides that might be good to refurbish, and the tools will serve you for the rest of your life. Take it slowly, make careful judgements on parts condition, and don't buy anything you don't have to UNLESS you have chosen to pursue a full on buildup rather than quickly getting it on the road. My slightly warped idea of a sensible compromise here might well be BOTH routes, the hotrodder's natural course to hell. If nothing is badly worn, do a valve lap, ridge ream, and ring job while really rebuilding another core engine for the future. This obviously wouldn't be a choice if everything is actually shot, in which case you're already committed to a real overhaul.

 

Well, the damages have been noted. Got a call from the machinist and well here it is:

1. I got one crack from the valve to cylinder...a new sleeve is needed and crack repair.

2. 3 cyclinders have gouges in them that may require me to sleeve or cut down to .060 to get them all equal and clean.

3. He did comment that this was one of the nicest blocks he has seen, the others he had to machine on were abortions.

4. Crank could be polished, but a regrind would be best.

5. Rods: hmmmm, new wrist pin bearings and regrinding of both ends.

Well, looking good so far...(yeah right!!). It looks like Ill be dropping an additional $1000 bucks (argh!!) to get most of the parts if not all of them right.

Ill be brining home the 'carc***es' to determine what my next plan will be....

"Welcome to the Flathead Family!!!!"

(argh!!!)

 

Hey Chopped,

Just wanted to say, thanks for doing this post. Its on of the best tech articles ever - I hope you continue with it to completion of the engine... be cool to cover machining, rebuilding etc.

I think I'm going to be in a similar boat to you with my flathead. Its running but 45psi was the reading on one cylinder with about 60psi being the average. Yuck.

FlatOz is helping me with my rebuild which I'm hoping will be limited to a re-ring and a valve lap. After seeing your engine though, I've got that cold cold im-going-to-have-to-spend-money feeling in my stomache.

Danny

 

Is that crack on an intake on the p***enger side? I thought I saw it on the right hand intake in your photo. If you need to rebore, .060" is pretty much nothing on a flathead. That is the route I would go.

 

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If you need to rebore, .060" is pretty much nothing on a flathead.

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Fukit - if you need to re-bore, go .125" over - no replacement for displacement. These are off-t******lf pistons at most places for either 3-3/4" or 4" crank. 4" crank gives you 276" There is still room for a rebore at .125", but the pistons ain't cheap & not much room for error.

Valves - 1.6 is NOT stock (1.5 is, I think), if you're re-cutting the seats though, it doesn't matter. Kinda like the bore - costs the same pretty much no matter how big you bore it.

 

Well, I have spent the last hour re-reading this thread.

And I have come to the conclusion guys that we just might have the makings of a "How To - Been There - Done That"; book on building the famous Ford Flathead.

Maybe we could call it, "Flathead Reality World"

Part One - The Tear Down and Decision Agony!

Part Two - "How Deep Are Your Pockets?"

Part Three - "Putting The Decisions Back Together!"

Hey, just "funnin'" a little, but we do have a lot of collective information going here.

 

Make list of parts from Red's--list machine shop expenses--add up--square the result...
Oh, yes, the divorce expenses...

 

[ QUOTE ]
Make list of parts from Red's--list machine shop expenses--add up--square the result...

[/ QUOTE ]

And if you happen to be north of the '49th, (in Canada) ADD 40%! to that number!!