"194 Tempest Drivetrain in a Model T questions" ?

Edit: I guess this is going to turn into my half-***ed build thread as well, so just keep reading and I will try to update when I remember to!

I just picked up my son's first car, a 1926 Model T roadster.

This car is supposed to be a three generation project with he and I and my father.

My son saw the picture of the rendering for Dennis Park's Track T and wants to build this car along those lines.

I am toying with the idea of using the drivetrain out of a 1962 Tempest.

One part of this that I am having trouble with is finding out how, or who could shorten the infamous "rope drive" for me.

Has anyone had any experience with this, or could point me in the correct direction to get this done?

My son is only 5 at the moment, so we have some time.

I humbly summon the vast knowledge and experience that is the HAMB.

 

Would this be the front engine rear transaxle?

 

Yes, sorry. It has the automatic rear transaxle...the one with the friggin' torque converter hanging out in the breeze, exposed. Weird.

 

194 powered Tempests with their hoods up always draw a crowd. But, in many years of attending car hobby events around the country I have never seen a motor, much less a complete drive train in a rod.

Here on the HAMB 194s pop up in discussions occasionally. There is speculation or intrest due to their oddity. But no reports that I can recall from anyone actually using one in a project.

There must be a reason. To hard to do pops into my mind. Which might be all the encouragement you need.

If I was building a T along the lines of the one Dennis Parks built in his book "How To Build A Cheap Hot Rod" I would consider a Chevy II 153, the similar 181, or the Pontiac 151 Iron Duke. But that is just me. I think Dennis used a Mustang V6.

It might be possible to run a conventional transmission behind the 194 and discard the complex Corvair based transaxle/rear suspension in favor of an 8".

The only way to get an answer to your question(s) may be buying a doner car, taking the drive train apart and fiddling around a bit.

 

E mail this guy http://www.corvaircorsa.com/V-12-01.html

 

Phil, thanks for the link.
Bib, part of my confusion is that the plunge has already been taken and the donor drivetrain is in the shop right now. Damnest thing I've ever seen.
I think the motor is just too weird to not use. I also can't say that I would mind the car getting a little attention...Besides I figure the torque converter hanging out back would sure beat a pair of "truck nutz", damn 5 year-olds!

 

Right now I'm trying to wrap my brain around the "flexible" part of the rope-drive.
I would think that a little cut here and a little weld there, but the flex part makes me think that it will break.
My son says "Daddy, why don't we make the car longer, then it would fit!"
I really don't think I want to extend a T roadster two feet!

 

Btt, still lost.

 

I'd figure out how to run a regular drive shaft. That flexible thing was used to keep the hump in the floor board low. Those things caused enough grief for mechanics when they were close to new and I'd hate to have to battle with one now.

 

I bought three of these engines (I haven't picked them up yet), with the intention of putting one in a hot rod, for the weirdness factor. I was told that trannies that fit a 389 will bolt up to the 195. I'd ditch the rope drive for something easier to deal with.

BTW, I'm in the market for a blower manifold for these (MT made them) if anyone has one or knows of one.

gary

 

Thanks, everyone for responding.
I need to do some more research on the transmission adaptability.
I just thought it would be pretty wacky to use the rope-drive.
It looks to me like the starter is in a bad spot to run a conventional ******.
I will check on this some more and update.
If anyone has more info, please feel free to let me know, I haven't given up yet.

 

Any of the Turbo 350/400 and other trans that have the Buick/Olds/Pontiac bell housing should work. You can usually find a turbo 350 with that bolt pattern pretty cheap. I have a bunch of rebuildable ones that I would give away but no good ones. I'd probably go with the 8 inch Ford. A GM Nova style ten bolt is cheap and looks good with a finned aluminum cover on it though.

 

I might be just trying to replace the rope-drive with a more conventional driveshaft type thing, in order to possibly make use of the transaxle.
What do you think?
I think I might be able to fab an adapter from the flywheel to a regular driveshaft and then mate the trans end of the rope drive to it as well.

 

There is a T with a complete Pontiac drive, like this, that comes to NSRA east at York. It's black and very well built. If he's there tommorow I will talk to the owner and report back. MAybe other HAMBers can be on the lookout. He usually parks at the opposite end of the grandstand from the So-What guys, close to where the celebs stand is.

 

Thanks. I appreciate it very much.

 

There was one of these in a car at the Springfield NSRA a couple of weeks ago. This one was also black, but sort of strange looking.

 

The engine is just half of a 389. As far as I know, any tranmission that will bolt up to a 389 will also work with a 194.

Kael

 

Thanks for all the info.
Still curious if anyone knows of anyone who has successfully had the rope-drive shortened?

 

Performance Years has a Pontiac web board so do some reading there. They know all about these things. If I remember correctly, the driveshaft cannot be shortened due to balance and those motors eat timing chains like clockwork at 10,000 miles.

 

Thanks, I will try them.
I tried www.highperformancepontiac.com but all I got was a history lesson.

 

A friend of mine had (maybe still has) one in his phone booth "T" truck. The latest of a long line of engines he has had in the car over the years. He runs a TH400 as I recall, and built the motor with a Ram Air head from the late '60s. He reports that it confuses lots of people that wonder where the rest of the motor went, and goes like stink (I doubt the all up weight is 2000).

As far as unsolicited advice goes, I can't imagine that any hot rod would work out better with the Tempest transaxle than if it had a (pick one) three speed, four speed, T5, TH350/400, or 200R4 and conventional rear end. If you really want the independent rear, get a Jag rear. Unusual is one thing, but I think trying to build a T roadster around one of those setups is folly.

 

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/index.php

Look around here.

 

So far as I know, the 194 has the same bolt pattern as the 1961-1964 Pontiac 389. A regular TH350/400/200R4 does NOT bolt up to these motors - well, it will, but there is no place to mount the starter - it bolts to the trans bellhousing.

You need an adapter made to put those transmissions behind the early 389 to make it work - or you could probably just make one if you had access to the right machine tools.

Or, run a dual-coupling Hydramatic or a 61-64 manual bell behind it. The manual bell is scarce but you can run pretty much any decent 4-speed behind it. The DC Hydro is a 4-speed and a pretty tough trans. A "Slim-Jim" Roto-Hydramatic will also fit up, but they're failure-prone units.

Because these cars could come with the aluminum 215, it's possible the trans that Buick and Olds used in their cars will work also.



For what it's worth, the wheelbase of the Pontiac is 12" more than the wheelbase of a Model T. You could play with photoshop to stretch a track T by a foot and see if it doesn't ruin the proportions, too.

 

I think, maybe incorectly, that the rope drive shaft has to be ridigely supported to maintain it's curve. And i would think some lube would be called for. I once saw an Corvair with a Jag V12 in front driving the flywheel and transmission from a Tempest in the rear. Alternator, water pump and all were in the back. Raditor, fan, and anything esle belt driven. Pretty cool.

 

Nope. Not without an adapter of some kind. The Buick/Olds/Rover 215 has a unique bell housing bolt pattern.

 

The 389 auto trans will bolt up to the 194.5 engine - after all, it IS half-a-389!

 

Thank you guys so much for all of the info.
This is one of the reasons I joined the HAMB Alliance!
I feel privileged to have been able to help others, and now to be helped by others is wonderful.

****, I tried their site and it is down right now, but I WILL get there.

Animal, I understand what you're getting at, but I have always had a soft spot for the eccentric.

Rusty, I thank you humbly for the trans info. If it turns out that I can't run the transaxle, I definitely want the car to be a manual.

RichFox, that thing sounds pretty insane. I'll have to see if I can find a photo of it.

Patrick, thanks, but I think that if I cannot adapt a conventional driveshaft to this combo, or shorten the rope-drive, then I want the car to be manual.

 

The late model GM transmissions (turbo hydramatic or manual trans) can be made to work behind these tempest 4 cylinder engines,it's not too complicated,but it does take a few modifications here and there.

One half of the bellhousing pattern is virtually identical to the later model transmissions,and one bolt on the other side is as well,so only two bolts do not line up perfectly,but there are work arounds for those.

Bolts are 7/16" on the 4 cylinder vs 3/8" for the late model blocks,but the trans holes are more than big enough when I trial fit an empty th 400 case.

Most use a chevy to BOP trans adapter for the auto trans applications,they usually have material where it's needed to fill the gap between the two.

For the manual trans applications,most just modify the common ****tershield housings to do the deed.

The next issue is the starter,what is done to deal with that is an adapter is made to mount the starter in a more traditional manner on the underside of the bellhousing pad.

A little work is often needed adapting later style flexpaltes or flywheels,but nothing others have'nt overcome doing this.

If you use an auto transmission you need to account for the convertor hub somehow as the crank is'nt equipped with the proper recess for that.

IIRC it's sorta the same deal for the pilot bearing on manual trans applications too.

Like stated lots of info over @ performance years (I'm a member there) in the tempest forum,two guys that really helped blaze the trail for this deal was white warrior (Dave Johnson~RIP) and rusty4cyl,those two guys ran these 4 cylinders in race applications and have BTDT.

Do a search under those guys screen names.

Dave had a nostalgia drag tempest that screamed,and rusty4cylinder races his tempest 4 jeep in sand/dirt drags.

Rusty's deal was blown,used a 4-71 IIRC.

There have been lots of pics posted over at PY,they really help explain the deal better than I have.

I'm kinda conflicted about stepping up and giving advice on this,as it seems we think a whole lot alike and I was sorta planning the same exact thing...

But what the he!!,the more the merrier right.

Next thing you know there will be an army of these out there,they'll be the new red '69 camaro of the hot rodding world...

 

Here are some of the relevant posts and links to the threads and pics.

White Warrior:

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=423313

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5893&d=0

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13003&d=0

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18990&d=0

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10142&d=0

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=24244&d=1123596849

Rusty4cyl:

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=391784

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460614

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=34686&d=1133655642

Hope this info helps your project.

 

Brett, absolutely fabulous info.
I was finally able to get on the forum at PY, and their 61-63 tempest tech archive has a lot of great info.

Thanks for your help, and I'll be sure to keep you updated and try not to step on your toes.