Riveting sealed containers?

I could use some input from you riveting pros...

It's looking like I'm going to be building my own gas tank since the vendor I ordered my gas tank from has dropped off the face of the planet. It's either that or wait another month or MORE to get what I need from someone else (waited more than 2-months ALREADY!! ). I can't afford to waste anymore time. So... unless miracles happen within the next two hours (I'm giving him until 10:00 AM) then I'll be building tank. No more BS.

Thinking ahead, I'm going to do an 18 gage steel construction oval tank (Model T style), but would like to rivet various parts of it together like the end caps, filler and drain bonnets, and a string of rivets to hold the main body together and possibly rivet the baffles as well. The seems will still be welded, but for strength I would like to rivet the pieces together first so the stress is on the rivets and not the welded seems. PLUS! Rivets just look awesome!

Clear as mud? Stupid idea?

The REAL question is... will solid (round head) rivets seal themselves when installed? I was going to run POR15 tank sealer inside anyway, but I don't want to rely on the sealer itself. I would prefer the rivets be sealed BEFORE sealer is put in the tank. Is there a specific rivet that would be appropriate for this?

School me!

Thanks!
Scooter

 

i thought they put a layer of lead in the seam to help seal it?

 

Yeah, every one I've seen constructed like that has all the seams soldered after the rivets are installed.

 

But are they soldering each rivet too or do the rivets seal themselves when they seat in the metal? I'll definitely be soldering and/or TIG welding the seams.

 

I think if you're going to put the sealer inside the tank anyway, there'll be no problem. Might use one of those pour in 'liners' instead of the POR15. They are made just for sealing issues and stuff like that.

 

I used POR15 tank liner for an old gas tank once and it was a pour-in deal. Two steps before the liner is poured in just to get it cleaned and prepped, but still a pour in. Is that what you mean or is there something else.

Still though... I would rather not rely just on a liner to create the seal. I'm guessing back in the day they didn't use liners. So how did they seal their rivets?

 

I found this on an RV builders site. Looks like they're using something called Proseal that Aircraft Spruce sells to seal the riveted areas. Traditionally, would this have been done with solder then instead of this Proseal stuff?

http://www.rv7at.com/wing.html











Looks like some nasty good stuff!

 

I don't remember what it was specifically. I had a '41 Ford that had a pinhole leak and it kept letting super fine rust past the paper filter and it would stop up the little filter on the inlet of the quadrajet.

We had the liner put into the tank at the local welding shop, and never had any more problems with it.

 

Use a little proseal around the heads of the rivets during install. Prep the surface with acetone. Once cured, the resuidal can be buffed away. There are two types of proseal- B-1/2 and B-2. I prefer the B-1/2 since the cure time is shorter (about 6 hours at normaol room temp). They make small containers of the stuff that has the two parts and a mixing stick all built in to the unit. If you buy the pint or quart it requires a scale as the mixture would be by weight. A little proseal goes a long way!

 

Great!!! Thanks man!!! That is great information!

Can you use a tank sealer in conjunction with the Proseal?

It's 10:00 AM. My order is getting canceled and I'm about to give myself a crash course in gas tank building!

Any suggestions on some basic riveting tools to aide the process? I'm going to pick up clecos, cleco pliers, and I will need a decent air riveter/hammer and buck. I'm going to use these for other parts of the car too, so the expendature is worth it. Any input you guys would have on the tooling end, please add the info!

Excited now!

 

One basic text is Crroll Smith's "Nuts, bolts, and fasteners"...racing stuff from the days of aluminum tub race cars.

 

Sealer...do you really want it in a new tank? People use it to seal in unremoveable crud, and the old car hobby has been repeatedly stung in the 30 years or so sealer has been popular by new blends of gasoline wrecking sealer and dumping endless flakes into the gas.

 

On the military base I work at I do repairs pretty often on damaged fuel tanks as well as fabbing tanks(air,fuel,chemical) for certain applications. I coat any joint that is not fully welded with two part Bexane. I used a putty knife to mix it once and layed it on the bench where it is still stuck after ten years(I can pull the steel bench around with it).
Take your time making it. It won't take you anywhere close to the 2 months you've already wasted on a company who dropped the ball. Definitely pressure test it and keep working with it till there are no leaks.

 

Technically it wouldn't HAVE to be run since it would basically be a rust free tank. I just thought it would make for added protection. I would only use good stuff or have it taken to a professional to have it done, but if it's really over-kill I can go without. I'm open to suggestions and advice on the subject for sure.

 

Using tank sealer over proseal may not work so well. When cured, the surface is glossy. It may not bond well....

I have to agree with the above comments about not using tank sealer. Might be a good thing to keep in your back pocket.

 

Okay... I think I'll push forward with the plan of NOT using sealer than.

 

I kinda like the idea of soldering the seams after ***embly and riveting. Is your sheet material plated with some sort of non rusting coating, like a real tank? Non coated sheet material will not hold up well to gasoline, the new stuff with ethanol.

Soldering would be very fast, look great, and is a little flexible.

Frank

 

Hmmm... you've got me thinking. No, the material I have is not. It's just regular old mild steel sheet. I could get a sheet of galvonized but will the solder react with it (if I went that direction)?

Maybe I should go aluminum. That would solve some problems and it would be easy to work with.

 

On the steel...a somewhat labor intensive way would be to build tank to the point that it can be fully ***embled with clecos, then tin the mating surfaces, tin the rivet shanks, and do a full solder seal by heating AFTER all is securely riveted.
By the way, acid is a big issue. My experience (on much smaller projects!) is that clean (or properly cleaned) steel can be nicely soldered with rosin core electrical solder.

 

Bruce you're starting to reinforce my thoughts on building one from aluminum...

 

scooter just strap a 5 gallon gas can to the back and call it good!! id go with the plastic can though..you know for affect.. nothing says patina like a faded out plastic gas can IMHO

 

Red, of course!!

 

Weld up a tank and then silver solder rivit heads to it
if you just want the look. Tig welds are plenty strong
without rivits.

 

Hmmm... stainless steel construction might be the ticket here.

 

We've very quickly overthunk this situation into a real project

 

HAHA! I know, right?! I was just thinking that too.

I was also just thinking that motorcycle tanks are formed from steel. Are they sealed or treated with something before they get put onto the bike and shipped out the door?? Everyone I've seen didn't have a liner, but then I haven't seen everything either. So what am I missing here?? YOu guys are saying that the new gas attacks steel but then there are steel gas tanks out there.

Still leaning towards 20 ga. stainless now though.

 

I think M/C tanks that are factory would be plated. The custom ones not. and I think they don't care.
See this ethanol **** already has water dissolved in the ethanol. In NJ 6% of the ethanol is mandated to be water. That's before habib puts the water hose in the tank.
I have always thought car tanks were plated, not with galvanizing, but something else. Ford A's were "TERN" plating. I'm not sure what that was?

Why couldn't you do the plain steel, and like Bruce said, tin it with solder? And instead of just the seams, do the whole inside before ***'y. I got some galvinized sheet outside, I'll tryto solder on it, I;ll let you know.

Frank

found the EASY ****on! Scuffed the gav. with a scotchbrite, wiped with laq thinner, rosin solder and a solder iron. stuck nice, wouldn't come off with a wire brush.

 

I would rather work with the plain 'ol steel. Honestly never tried tinning anything that substantial. I don't even know how to comment to that since I've never tried it.

I'm getting overwhelmed by all this now. I'm destined to do it, but I need to make some decisions quick. I'm ordering a **** load of clecos next week as well as the riveting tools. Then I'm going to start working on the buck. The actual ***embly process is even ANOTHER puzzle. Doing this so everything is leak proof AND ***embling it so I don't find myself in a "chicken or egg" situation. **SIGH**

 

If you are going to make a tank, regardless of the material,weather it is welded or riveted, I would suggest using the Proseal! I've been an aircraft mechanic for almost 10 years and for fixing leaks, its tough to beat proseal. As long as the surface is clean and dry you'll have no problem with leaks. It is very durable and stays somewhat flexable when cured. It cures to almost like a hard rubber. It's kind of like a glorified seam sealer used in cars but can stand up to gas, jet fuel, and other harsh chemicals. If you are going to use rivets, dab them in the sealer before you put them in the holes. After the tank is ***embled, coat the back of the rivets and the seams with sealer if they are still accessable.

 

Thanks Ed!!

There's a key phrase... "if they are accessable" That's the kind of things that worries me right there!! I need to plan this pretty careful!

Just out of curiosity... can you paint over Proseal?