241 HEMI, Enough hp for a real hotrod?

I run a 241 red ram in my A Coupe. Best part about it is how people walk up and say "Ohhhh. a HEMI, I bet that thing halls ass "

That's when I respond with well it only a 241 ( 100 cubs less than a 350 ), it has never been rebuilt, and BTW it only put out like 135HP new in 53 so I'm lucky if I'm getting 100 out of it now.

All in all you can't beat the looks of this engine.

I am pulling it out of my ride in a few weeks and having a complete rebuild done.

Some tips

call HOT HEADS, they have great service and WILL help you.

I opted to build my own motor mount and used their chevy water pump conv brackets and x-over tube. I didn't do the full on billet cover, mounts, their chain and cam ( this saved me some bucks ). You can get away with running a long SB pump and water pump extensions, this will get you out past the stock cover if you don't want to run the bling. I used a SB mopar balancer ( from HH ) and a PNP pulley from the same. I am running a 727 trans ( also needs a rebuild ), but HH has adapters for all popular transmissions ( anything manual is going to cost you 650.00 for the adapter )

I am estimating my winter rebuild to be about 2500.00


I post up some pics of the pump and mount in a few

 

Well these pics just about made me throw up... My car looks like ass now , Ohh well.... This winter it will look good again.

 

Were would you spend 5K?
I wish I had you guys for customers.
Good little engine. A bit heavy for its cubes. The super red was a bit better stilll If I had one would do it in a heartbeat.
Rebuild kit should be around $1000 to $1200 pistons included. Cams are available. Intakes are to0 although maikng one fr these engines would be fun and easy.
Adapters? you dont need no stinking adapters. Flatty 6 belhousing fits as does the flywheel and clutch. Just helped a friend adapt a volare 4 speed OD trans to the same exact set up. Cost us about 70 bucks total to adapt.
Engines seem to have crank troubles but all i have seen have been old brutes and damage seemed to be caused by dirt (not enough oil changes and maybe not good enough filter. Have not seen one with serious crank problems. Just worn out.
Machine work ? Should be around $1000 to $1200 boring hot tanking decking and installing new cam bearings valve job and head planing and crank regrind.
Cams are available or regrinds can be done although a bit more costly (about $30 or $40 more.)
Just finshed helping a friend wth a 331 rebuild. We are looking at a 241 if we can pry it loose from the owner who will never use it now anyway having let it sit for 40 years untouched.
The more you do the less it will cost . Hot heads and Egge has parts. IF you want more compression custom pistons can be made for under $700 by any of the big forged piston companies. i use Ross mostly myself but have used JE as well. Compression could be sneaked up to 8 to one by milling of both block and heads. A stroked crank will add stroke, cubes, and compression in one fell swoop. It is often possible to make the stroke so the stock piston design comes just to the top of the cylinder. A welded stroker usually costs in the $350 to $500 range depending on who does it. We use Canadian Chrome and Crank in TO. Nitriding would be a good idea.(Althugh I spend thegoldfor hard chroming when i do one but it aint cheap) Our guy gets the welded strokers stress relieved before the final grind. Any or all of these can be done and still be below the $5K mark. One Hp per cube should be easy and a bt more too I would expect. Nice little motor .
Just a few thoughts on your interesting project.

 

Okay NORWELL, I'm coming to get you. Hey great looking intake, what are you going to build next? I assume some awsome deuce or something, knowing you buddy....

What a pretty motor for a fraction of the price of an Ardun flathead !!!! What a minute, thats what you have, just a few more main caps !!!!!

 

241 officially 7.5 comp ratio, but Doc Fromader said one measured to an actual 6.5.

 

Nice lookin' motor. With the 'Super Red Ram' valve covers you likely have a 315 or 325, I think. I've never seen 4 carbs on a Red Ram. I just got a 241 going in a '32 roadster and it has plenty of 'beans' for the street on just one 94 (more coming). I've still got clutch issues with my T5 trans, but it'll be great in a Model A. Weighs the same as a flatty and twice the power, stock. Just make sure your clutch linkage is sorted out.

 

Here is a 4x2 log for a 241 or up..I'm also going to try this with Stromberg 81s..Most likely to much fuel..Another winter project..
Duane..

 

Super Red Ram valve covers came on the 270..
Duane.

 

No too many carburetors means not enough fuel.

 

I have a 270 Hemi in my 31 PU that im building. I have about $3000 in it. It should produce somewhere around 250-300 horse and the torque will be incredible out of this little thing. Here is a list of what I put in it.
.55 boreover
.55 over Ross pistons 9:5:1
.450 lift cam (can't remember the duration at the moment) Old Racer
Brown grind
340 modified oil pump (30% more volume)
Rebuild of heads (stock) except new springs
340 modified damper
windage tray
3x2 Offy intake with Strom 48's
Chysyler A883 4-speed
Once you put a damper on them the crank will be fine. Hotheads told me it should be around that horsepower with no headwork!!!! Torque will be way more than a Model A can handle
Build it there a blast!!!

 

"the torque will be incredible"
"Incredible" means, literally, "I don't believe it".

No, the the torque will be about 275-300 ft./lbs. - about 100 less than a 350, 200 less than a stock big block.
Every single engine that will not develop any serious power "has a lot of torque".
No, they don't.
Torque is not a mysterious quality that only happens sometimes. All engines have torque, and again, again, again: the amount is roughly in proportion to the engine size, about 100-120% × size.
Changes: 12:1 compression - slightly more, maybe.
7:1 compression, slightly less, definitely.
More cam - less torque.
Most speed equipment (if it works, much of it does not; most of those old school manifolds are worse than the original - they just reduced pumping loss by using more carburetors) simply moves the same amount of torque to a higher RPM - nothing else.
It also reduces the torque at the same RPM. That's where the phrase comes from "you have to row it along in traffic with the shift lever" - it has no guts at moderate speeds. Isn't it faster? Sure - between 4,000 and 6,000 RPM. Between 1,000 and 4,000 it's slower.

How to get "incredible torque"? It's a short list:
1. 500" motor
2. Blower
3. Nitrous

There are no other methods.

 

"30% increase oil flow with 340 HV pump". Maybe, Does anyone have reliable flow numbers for low deck Dodge, DeSoto & Chr hemis? The high decks all use the same pump. It's generaly acknowledged the the 340 HV pumps 3.5% more oil than OEM. HH claims 30% & Doc Fromader claimed the same increase on a 315 build on Webrodder. I asked both where the 30% came from. Doc responded that the 3.5% is accurate if the hemi pump was new. Unless a NOS pump shows up on EBay, there are no new hemi pumps out there. He said the erosion of the pump houseing isn't fixed during the rebuild & there is a resulting loss of flow that MIGHT be up to 30% vs a new 340 HV pump.

 

In the foundry tooling world an oven door and an intake manifold are a world apart difficulty-wise. If you can make a piece useable on an engine (without 5 lbs of filler rod) in less than 10 tries, you sir, are the man. 10 X $100 a try, plus a couple hundred hours of tooling development, plus the finishing cost/hours and final machining. Suddenly a $1200 vintage intake on ebay looks more reasonable

 

Good point - nice to know your pump is new and therefore safe.
However: unless you have a remote oil cooler or spin it very fast the stock pump is fine.
More oil pressure and volume reduces power slightly, does not change engine temperature, does not extend engine life, and (in engines with distributor drive at the pump) reduces ignition timing accuracy.
All a higher capacity pump does:
1. minimum (idle) pressure slightly higher, but it doesn't matter
2. maximum pressure reached at slightly lower RPM, but it doesn't matter
3. after maximum pressure is reached, exactly the same amount of oil goes to the engine as with the stock pump

Want to do something useful?
Port the pump inlet, block passages etc. Change oil and filter frequently.

 

"100 pounds less than a 350" What 350 do you own? There rating is around 240 and they have 80 more cubes! 300 lbs is great for a engine with such small a cubic inches. I guess I shouldnt have used the word incredible but for that size of a engine very respectable and can move a 2300 pound car like a bat out of hell.

 

The foundry comments are right on point. Pattern making is an art, manifold design is both art and science, and the odds of learning both the first time are zero.
It will not turn out the way you want:
1. it will take far, far longer to come up with the pattern (draft, shrink, 2 piece molds, sprue location)
2. not that easy to "know" how a piece of wood will work as an intake port even with a flow bench
3. lots of machining after you get the casting back:
a. 2 flanges milled flat and parallel - do you know the angles?
b. the final width across the flanges is??
c. bolt pattern bosses spot-faced on top, matched for thickness
d. bolt pattern holes drilled at the flange angle
e. carburetor base milled flat at what angle?
f. carburetor base pattern located and drilled
g. carburetor throttle bores located and bored
h. misc. water transfer, bracket mount, vacuum tap holes?
i. all machined surfaces de-burred
j. cleaning
k. paint or rust-protected
Your machinist does not know any of these dimensions - you can't look them up, he's going to charge you $50. an hour to find out from your old manifold, and if he's wrong - you pay him anyway.

It's like the "light bulb" story.
The first light bulb costs $10 million and 5 years to build the factory.
The 10th light bulb costs $1 million ($10m ÷ 10).
The 10 millionth light bulb costs 10¢.

Or perhaps you've heard the chicken ranch story?
100 chickens is a 4H Club project.
1,000 chickens is an expensive hobby.
10,000 chickens is a huge loss.
1 million chickens breaks even.
10 million chickens is a small profit.
1 billion chickens is Tyson.

If you want to make them as a product, count on at least $10K expenses before you have a product to go in the box, and selling hundreds as a minimum before you see any profit.
if you want one for yourself, I strongly suggest a weld-up log manifold: http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/log.htm
They can be very pretty, and provide good power.

 

""100 pounds less than a 350" What 350 do you own? There rating is around 240 and they have 80 more cubes!

Sorry, shouldn't have used the older SAE gross rating - 400-425 typical for hi-perf engines. LS1 is more like 350 ft. lbs. net, 5.7 hemi is 407. My Chrysler 379" W2 engine is perhaps 450.
You're also describing the performance of a car that doesn't exist yet...?
Not to dampen your enthusiasm, but the weak links in your prediction:
1. let's assume the engine does exactly what you want
2. the car will not weigh 2300 lbs. I've been doing this since 1963, and they never do.
3. if true, a 640 lb. engine in the nose of a 2300 lb. car has no traction, and very little can be done about it (read some of the threads on this, and see how many people just don't get it - no matter what shocks, sway bar, pinion angle, blah the car has perhaps 900 lbs. over the rear wheels and the tires go up in smoke at 50 mph in high gear). That's one of the reasons why the RPU remained popular - weight over the wheels.

 

Well the car in the picture is almost done. And the 2300 is a ballpark figure. Im not sure quite yet but its close. The 577lb 270 which is almost the weight of a 350 should perform the way I want it. I'm really not worried about maxing out traction if i were i wouldnt be putting bias ply tires on a car. And from the sounds of it you have years of experience which is way cool. Im glad your still doing it. Im only 35 but have built about 12 cars so I know about weight ratios and what engines can do. Try cramming a 472 Hemi in a 67 Formula S barracuda fastback. (not tubbed) absolutely no traction but what a ride

 

George..Be careful with the 340 oil pump conversion..I had lots of issues with mine..Fractured the oil pump shaft..The right angle tapper was not radiused..Got a new one and had it radiused..Pump would not align correctly and kept binding the shaft..I had to file and sand the collar to get the flanges to mate up..(the adaptor flange and the pump flange)..Got all that done and the shaft turned free..Next, the intermediate shaft was to long, my dizzy wouldn't lay flat on the block..Do lots of measuring and to make sure it will go in right..I used lots of blueing die to make sure everything was mating up..
Lots of hours and frustrations..It works great now..
Duane...

 

Yeah I remember you posting on that. My post was saying the 30% increase is theoretical, & if anyone knew how OEM low deck oil pumps flow compared to OEM high deck

 

I'd like to apologize to any builders and planners if I come across as rather harsh and depressing.
I've made quite a few mistakes over the years, and would like some of these to be considered as consequences when someone is putting a lot of their life (and money!!) into such an ambitious project.
I'd like to see more people happy with the cars when they're done - rather than disappointed because of unrealistic expectations. Happy owners build more cars and keep the hobby alive.
I grew up with someone for whom performance didn't matter at all, he would never abandon his 30 Ford A flathead V8. Some other friends would never drive something that didn't permit them to challenge the other car at the next light - no matter what it was.
I don't think I'm going to build anything again (age, eyesight, money - blah, blah) so watching (and hopefully assisting) younger builders is my involvement.

Good luck to anyone working on their own stuff.
Remember: today's work is not done until you've lost 1 tool and cut yourself.

 

Elgin part # em-50 Oil Pump is listed as fitting the little dodges to the 392 and is brand new.

 

...gotta wonder if 53dodgecustom had any idea what a hornets nest he was stirring.....

Just a couple of random thoughts.
1. if the guy in Canada can do proper rebuilds for what he claims we should all send our work to him.
2. 241 cams are available ?? tell us all where to be looking.
3. a stock style oil pump is approx equal in flow to the hv340 according to Melling. and the issues with shaft alignment are real and can get real expensive.
4. HP is a function of torque. HP and torque are equal at 5250 rpm.
a 241 will not have monster torque but it will have monster 'cool'. Compression makes torque, cautious cam profiles make torque. Too much intake air kills low speed torque.
5. as for the flat 6 bellhousing being a bolt-up, geeesh, what is that guy smokin??

 

Ummm, I hope you're not too much in love with that 300hp figure. I happened to run across a Rodders Journal article on the Ramrod, a '29 roadster by the Williams Brothers (TRJ 34, Fall 2006), and it's a primer on building a 241. They bored it .060 over to 250 ci, used 13:1 custom pistons and Hilborn injection, and got 290hp on methanol on a dyno. It went 159 at B-ville in 1954 before bending a rod. I would think 200-225 would be a realistic goal for a street motor that will live. My engine builder told me to keep it under 5500 because of the long rockers.
Sorry to mislead you about the valve covers.

 

MAn thereare a lot of skeptics around. I have made a few things from aluminum including some intake stuff. It wasnt all that expensive when i farmed it out and i have also done a bit of casting at home. The foundry last time told me for complicated shapes just make the pattern from styrafoam glued together and he would pour it for me. Apparerantly the styrafoam vapourizes and the aluminum takes its place. He is a second generation foundry man and does a lot of miltary contracts as well. Cost was for the intake top I had made 270 dollars. Since it was otherwise nonexistant i thought it was a bargin. He said with styra foam t would have been less expensive because he wouldnt have had to add clay to my pattern so it would come out of the molding sand. It is more then just pack and pour. I have cast a lawn mower piston at home. and a few other things.
As soon as I hear "not practical or cant be done" I know it will probably work If it can be made elsewhere then I and you can make it too. Anyway Smokey Yunick put it best when he said "one good experiment is worth a thousand expert opinions." Truer words were never spoken. Go for it if you so inclined. You might surprise yourself

 

As already said the harmonic balancer is a must!If you could build it for 5k that would really be on the cheaper side for one of these.Hot Heads is a great place to deal with for all the parts you'll need they even have a great question and answer site full of guys that know alot about early Hemi's,I have 4 Dodges Hemi's they are coolest looking and much lighter than a Chrysler.good luck!

 

i've had blower parts ,fuel blocks and my dads old club plaque recast. too bad the foundry i was using closed , i was getting ready to have them cast some cam blanks for the baby dodges. i even talked to crane and chet herbert about finish grinding the lobes ,