Stainless workhardens just as badly as copper. The local brake place here will sell you "stainless steel" brake line - it sure isn't stainless though. If you polish through the nickel plating it rusts.
I'm not denying the work hardening of stainless and copper. I would like to see real world numbers as far as the strength of copper versus aluminum, steel and stainless. It should be a moot point though as lines should be firmly secured to inhibit vibration and excess movement that would contribute to work hardening. Copper is still a soft metal though, and using REAL stainless, not the plated BS, is a permanent solution as it is impervious to rust, corrosion and oxidation. I still go with the sure thing
I just drilled the block on my '54 chevy 235, and added a remote oil filter attached to the engine, and ran 1/2" copper lines. I then tapped one of the fittings to hook up my stock oil pressure gauge. I used the original copper line to the gauge, it is 54 years old, and I was able to bend it and reroute it with ease, so I'm not too worried about the new ones I added, I think I'll be long gone before they go.
What about PEX? seems to hold up pretty well. My thinking might be a bit different than most on the subject of automotive design, but I always like to build my cars to meet the specs of state and federal laws, the NHRA rulebook, and the NSRA safety 23 or whatever it is, and the governing bodies of any other thing the car might be involved in. None of the aforementioned specs are hard to meet and they offer a minimum standard to which a car must be built. Safe or not, legal or not, copper won't p*** tech at the strip so it will never be on a car I build.
I read the posts on this before i went to work, and I was thinking......how many people who have concerns about the unlikely failure of the copper brake lines and, rightly so, if you are not happy with using copper...but...use a single resevoir master cylinder?We`re talking safety isues here and the potential failure of the system due to a cracked copper line and the loss of your brakes.So, with these concerns, how many ditch the single pot and fit a dual?A turned seal or split hose will give you the same grief. I am using Kunifer, and a dual cylinder with original `40 drums back and front btw.
Re copper for oil line to gauge. I went to drag race my roadster T at a T&T night. The tech guy was telling me all the reasons why he would not let me run; no roll bar, no shoulder harness, no fire jacket, no arm restaints, And then, do you have an oil gauge in the dash? Yup, he says that needs a hard line or a stainless line, none of that plastic ****. I got a copper line, properly pigtailed. He's happy with that, anyway. And the track manager said as long as he's got a seat belt and a helmet, let it go. And I ran a 13.5 @ 102. Frank
You seem like a nice enough boy... and you brought up a hell of a point about the single vs dual master cylinders. ~Jason
I understand Copper work hardens. But how much movement is there in a Brake or Fuel Line anyway? One of my Racecars has Copper Brakelines on it. I need to do some Brakework on it ( it has a leaking seal on a Caliper ), so I plan to replace them all at that time. But I know they have seen some hard use, in a hostile enviroment ( extreme heat, and vibration...)
Kunifer, Cunifer, Cupro-Nickel - all names I've heard. I've used this on the last two cars I've plumbed. Much, much easier to form & flare than steel. ' "Rat rods" are not traditional. Words have meanings. And what we hear as internet rumor... All metal work hardens (except maybe pure gold or lead, but...) I see a few folks have answered that it is available here - I just ordered mine from the UK and had it shipped - it was cheap enough compared to the stateside stuff I found. Does your memory include a part number? Because words mean things. Read the link posted by Abomination - it's more a corrosion issue for everything else. Strength is relative - brake pressures aren't that high & only failures I've ever seen were due to corrosion - of steel lines. Stainless is not necessarily impervious to rust, it is more accurate to say it is resistant to it. Stainless can & will rust based on how which composition of alloys it has... If you're building from scratch, a dual is the way to go. If you have a good single system that is well maintained, that's OK too. A dual m/c will not prevent all types of brake failure, but it certainly adds protection against many forms of it. The real trick is the engineering of the linkage to get enough pedal throw to fully utilize a dual M/C. Amen. Properly supported, there should be little/no movement in the hard lines and no concern over work hardening.
From what I've seen, the Kunifer has a kinda yellowish collor. The Brakelines on my Car are a much redder Copper collor. ( so it must be a different material...) And it had a pretty heavy wall, compared to Steel Lines. If I remember right, it was reccomended for use on Taxi's in some Euro Countries at the time. ( no corrosion...) I want to get rid of it because its old, and Tech Guys are probably not used to seeing it.
he meant to say blink182 - theyre a pop/mallpunk band from san diego - that get major teenage er uh I mean 18 year old tail, and I hate them for it but yes, definitly not PUNK ROCK NealinCA - thats a good lookin setup!
niicccceee, see i like the look of cleanly bent copper polished i was thinking of doing it myself. i mean, didnt the br*** era cars use it?
NAPA is carrying this new fuel line that bends super easy and is almost guarenteed to not collapse or kink.. its a little more expensive, but it lasts longer and it does make a project easier, thats what im going to run on my truck
For the fellow wondering if you can use copper lines in Canada: I was just checking in my copy of the Ontario Department of Motor Vehicles Highway Traffic act R.R.O. 1190, Regulation 611: Safety inspections and it does not specify what materials should be used for brake lines or fuel lines. There may be a more detailed materials regulation some where but I'll have to go looking. We were taught in school (Automotive Mechanics in Ontario must work 6400 hours in a shop and complete three semesters of college a**** other things) that brake lines must be DOT aproved steel tubing and must have proper double or metric bubble flare ends with DOT aproved fittings (ABSOLUTELY NO COMPRESSION FITTINGS). Fuel line has no such restrictions as it can be plastic (modern vehicles are coming from the factory with some sort of nylon or PVC lines now) steel or aproved rubber fuel hose. With fuel injection there must be special high pressure rubber hose (if rubber hose is being used) with proper high pressure hose clamps (wich I personnaly would never recommend using if its approved or not!). I have personnaly delt with aluminum fuel lines that have corroded and broken (we have harsh slaty winters in Ontario and I've been driving my 57 chev all year 'round). I would always recommend properly bent and secured steel fuel lines with minimal rubber hose, secured to frame, firewall etc. to prevent fatigue and I don't recommend compression fittings as they have a habit of leaking. However when dealing with low pressure carburated applications I don't think there is a huge danger of copper lines failing if all fittings are done properly, no line is chaffing any where and is secured properly to prevent fatigue. There may however be a slight advantage in the caser of an accident where steel lines may be less likely to brake. Once again, in carburated applications with low pressure mechanical fuel pumps once the engine shuts off so does the fuel pressure (wich is not very high to begin with) and the chances of huge amounts of pressurized gasoline being sprayed all over the accident scene (re:you, your car and innocent bystanders) are lessened. My two cents.
Early Packards had copper lines all over the ch***is. As so many found (especially Abomination) there's proper copper (no I'm not a rapper) for the job in question. Many of the OEMs pre-war specified copper plated steel to ward off contamination. It didn't work as well as planned but worked for a while. I like a nice stainless line fabricated for the task. I only use copper where it's specified in restoration. Several lines in the early stuff were nickel plated copper. We routinely use stainless line to get the look with out the h***el of oxidized nickel lines, although industrial grade "grey nickel" plating has a real special look and can be worth the trouble of cleaning em once a year. Ratrods? We don' do no stinkin ratrods, yo.
Man, ain't that the truth? It seems like there are a few guys on this forum that find it real easy to have big at***udes as long as they are anonymously hiding behind a computer monitor. . I thought your question had a lot of merit. Looks like most of the responses had viable answers. My knowledge about copper lines is the same as what has been already stated - they are prone to cracking due to vibration and work-hardening if not used correctly, and therefor can be a fire hazard. No idea if they are illegal in Canada, though. Good luck -
Was copper more $$$ than steel pre-war??? I'd think that copper was phased out during the depression as a way for manufactures to lower production costs? Just a random thought....probably wrong.....haha
come on - this is spelled out all over this thread!! Cooper = Weak (I kicked his *** in school, andnow my son is kickin his sons ***) Copper = the Plague, a can o locusts, the devil himself recreated (But shur is purty) ****, I lied and said I was done with this yesterday - DAMMIT ALindustrial - more info please.part no. or anything?
I'm sure the first guy to jump his **** was frustrated because this topic has been discussed, at length, before. All he needed to do was use the search ****on. And having ratrod in his screen name probably didn't help either. I think the copper lines look uber ***y. Some of the info Abomination posted is really interesting. I personally don't think cracking is an issue if its installed properly and inspected regularly.
If copper is so prone to vibration induced work harding, how come all the old copper tube radiators don't fall apart from constant flexing? I have seen dozens of engine fires from hardened rubber hoses crumbling, which seems to take about 10 years. I was driving my 1993 Mazda minivan one day in Mexico and smelled gas. I opened the hood and gas was pouring out in a steady piss stream onto the hot manifold. I had just gotten this car and drove it from NC to El Paso like that. Lucky it didn't burn up. I've found brittle rubber lines on many cars I've owned. I one bought a car in a junkyard and changed out the rotten fuel line and drove it home. Looks to me like rubber is at least as reliable as copper (that's called sarcasm for the half wits). I have never seen anyone say "Yea, I had copper lines and my car burned" on any board. Someone show me a picture of a cracked line or charred car or step up and admit you did it. This subject comes up a couple times a year here and the same "It'll work harden" comes up. I don't really think this happens with any regularity at all (yep, I call ******** on this one). Besides, if you are half a car owner you'll be checking your car for **** that's wearing out or about to break or cracked every time you got the hood open. Just take your fingers and check it while the car is cool and look for leaks once every week or two.
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