T.Boone Pickens has his commercial all over the airwaves pushing the use of natural gas as the next logical step toward energy independence.What all are the pros and cons of using natural gas in a traditional engine?Seems like I remember reading natural gas has higher octane so we would be able to run high compression if that is true.Anybody here run the stuff in a car or truck?
Like all energy sources that have to be captured and then resold, when the demand goes up, then the price will too. so, if we all started trying to use natural gas to solve our problems, then it would be just as expensive or even more expensive. But, as far as the use of it in as a fuel in a car engine, it is very much like propane or any other methane, butane, etc. However, it needs to be condensed into a liquid form first. Otherwise you will need to trail around a tank the size of blimp to get you anywhere long enough. So, it needs to be LNG or liquified natural gas. Same benefits and problems as propane/methane/butane - price depends on demand/supply and big energy companies do and will control in the future it for the most part. That is where T. Boone comes in. I am sure he is leveraging his financial future hoping the demand for natural gas will pick up sharply. I bet if you check into his investments, he is probably heavily investing in natural gas production and distribution. That is what smart people with money do. I can guarantee you he is not doing it out of just the goodness of his heart. Whether it is a good idea or not, I am pretty sure he is banking there is big money to be made if the market can just be developed and that is what he is trying to do with his 'opinions'. However, it is possible to capture methane from fairly common sources such as decomposing garbage, cow poop, etc. But, you will still need to compress it down into a liquid (which takes energy itself) to really use in a car application. Methane is a very bad greenhouse gas and cows make a hell of a lot of it and most is just released into the air. If a lot can be captured, at least it is using something that is now going to waste for the time being. Not sure how burning it changes the greenhouse effect of it though. I bet T. Boone is not too interested in methane because it is too easy to produce and therefore not as easy to exploit and make a good profit off of.
Ak Miller was a big propane enthusiast in the 60's and 70's, lots of municipal trucks use it especially gas companies. the best benefit other than low cost is that it burns clean in the cylinder, it burns completely and doesn't "wash down" the oil and soot it up. propane powered engines usually show little or no wear compared to equal mileage gasoline engines. the same carburetor/regulator setup used on forklifts will will on auto engines. it's really industrial looking though, not "cool" looking like turbos and dual 4v's! i think Ak's widow still sells these setups under her initials MM.
Pickens is heavily invested in it. I drove a natural gas delivery truck way back in the early 80's. Power wasn't any noticably different than regular gas but I had to get the tank filled nearly everyday which was a PITA.
Went to lunch the other day and a guy parked next to me in a newer Honda Civic that was LNG....... I have no idea where the fueling station is around here. I saw a blurb one time that some company was going to sell home fueling stations. You'd just hook up when you came home and the next morning it would be full.
Takes more fuel to produce the same amount of power. Takes a different fuel tank. don't get as good MPG as gasoline because propane and I'm assumming CNG have/produce less energy for a given amount than good ole gas. Burns very clean, oil never gets black, less wear on engine. Remember-TANSNAAFAL-there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Cheaper to buy, but it takes more to go the same difference.
I don't really care weather or not Pickens is going to make money.More power to him if he sees a new market and makes a big profit.That is what being American is all about.I am really only concerned with how you can use it and what changes will have to be made.For sure,there are changes coming and someone is going to be on the leading edge of new technology.If it burns clean and completely then it already sounds better than gasoline or diesel.Low MPG sounds like a real drawback though.If you can harvest it from landfills then it will be around a long time.Or have pipes routed up a cows rectum........
CNG is more common than LNG, as liquifieng requires cryogenics. CNG just needs a compressor capable of 4000psi. You can even buy a pump to refuel your car from your home NG supply. The disadvantage is low range. The tank needs to be quite large to carry enough fuel to be useful, about 3.85 gallons volume for energy equivalent to 1 gallon of gasoline. It burns clean and has approx 130 octane, so is good for high performance engines.
almost. it doesn't need to be liquified, just compressed. LNG & CNG are 2 different things, and CNG (compressed nat gas) is what we will see grow as a distribution network. as of several months ago, > 200 filling stations in california and growing. honda's car is CNG. compression is the real trick... gets compressed to > 3,000 psi. there is a product that you can hang on your wall in your garage that will compress nat gas from your house. www.myphill.com. you obviously need a proper tank, and the btu density is not as dense as gasoline, and shape of the tank is pretty much restricted to scuba looking stuff. that would be excellent. more energy supply would mean lower overall prices, and we would have multiple options of energy for transportion which would reduce pricing volatilty. right now, in Utah, you can purchase CNG (already compressed from filling stations) for about 50 cents GGE (gasoline gallon equivalent). we have a bountiful supply of natural gas, and if pickens can divert nat gas usage away from electicity production, substituted with wind power, our nat gas supply is a formidable form of energy for transportation use. and you're right.... if we push hard to make CNG and gasoline a fungible energy source, the prices will converge, just like they did with alternative trasportation fuel sources in Brazil. in my opinion, that's a good thing. we have heaps of red tape to create any kind aftermarket kits that alter emmissions this radical, even if it does burn cleaner. pickens CNG plan is aimed at fleets (taxis, govt vehicles, city buses, garbage trucks, etc). hot rodders that have a streak of nerdyness could assemble something though, and i would really like to read about it. there is a company that makes a kit to create a hybrid from an EFI car. install the CNG tank, and a valve into the plenum behind the throttle body butterflies. then, install electronic signal interceptors between the fuel injectors so you slow down gasoline injection and open valve to some CNG. also has a signal interceptor to ignition timing & o2 sensor, as nat gas burns at a different AFR. www.cngoutfitters.com
We discussed this at lengths during dinner last night. Yes Pickens will make tons of money on this, bit it is an interesting idea. Bush promotes a hydrogen economy and we are no where near realization of that (no technology, no infrastructure). Greenies promote ethanol but ethanol is a poor fuel (low btu, corrosive, and hygroscopic) and there is not enough ethanol capacity to meet demand. CNG on the other hand is a decent fuel (about 80% thermal capacity of gasoline) easliy adaptable to reciprocating gas engines. And the infrastructure is primarily in place. In fact, they want to place personal filling stations in your home using you current nat. gas service. Plus, don't tell the government, but if you fill up using the pump at home. the tax structure is such that you would pay much less than what we do at the neighbor hood pump. Shhhhhhh
One of my lab projects in college was to convert a motorcycle engine to run on natural gas. The pressure of the tank is so high, that it required a special regulator and carburetor. The thing ran okay. The drawback was that it took about an hour to fill the 180 cu. ft. tank with the school's filling station. I have heard that on older engines it destroys the valve seats because of the lack of lead gaseous fuels provide. On the other hand I was told that back when you could still get leaded fuel at the pump. Dave
Yeah, you can bet T. Boone ain't in it for patriotism and the working folks of the USA! But the interesting thing is that the Left Coast's own Nancy Pelosi , who has pulled every parlimentary trick in the book to prevent congress rescinding the ban on offshore drilling and ANWR oil exploration/drilling, has a large sum invested in these CNG&LNG firms with which T.Boone is involved! Dave
Who cares if Pickens makes money on this idea? He already has billions and that's what rich folks do...Make money. What he proposes is good for the economy in that we don't have millions of US dollars going to foreign countries with none of it returning. That helps the economy grow (it balances the deficit). We have lots of NG in this country and wind power is a renewable resource to generate a large chunk of the energy needs of the US. As he states, this is only a bridge until we can refine an alternative fuel. Even if NG costs the same as gasoline, at least that money stays in this country and feeds the economy. Fuel cells are not that far off, in fact BMW is producing a Hydrogen powered car and Honda has plans to do the same. United Technologies has been developing fuel cells for at least 10 years now and is quickly becoming the leader in that technology. Pickens plan will work, it is a great idea and if you think it will make him even more wealthy, invest in natural gas right along side of him.
My problem is not T.B. in any way, profit or loss. He is, after all else is said, a businessman out to make a dollar. What rips my ass is that bitch Nancy Pelosi, the HMFWAIC of all that goes thru congress, blocking a vote on lifting drilling bans while holding a chunk of stock in a company that will benefit greatly in the continuation of the present ban. Dave
One of the solutions to that is by the ballot box.We need to get these people out of office.They have an approval rating half of that of GWB and his is pretty low.Pickens at least has a workable plan it sounds like.The Democrats in Congress don't want to do anything at all.Wouldn't it be great to get everyone in there a new job somewhere else?
Bingo. How many of you out there have ever got a good paying job from someone who didn't have money? Some of you may call them "rich sons of a @#*@*". I call them an employer. BTW When I get around to building a shop truck, it will run on CNG. 60 cents a gallon? Who cares if you use twice a much?
Well, nice thought, but do a little research instead of just have opinions. Most of the natural gas we use in the US comes from Cananda and that is because that is where most of it is that is close to us. Natural gas, like oil, isn't just everywhere waiting to be tapped into by some genius who is smarter than everyone else. So, if we start using a lot of natural gas, we are going to need to give more money to Canada and other places to cover what we still won't be able to get from our own territory. T. Boones is just planning to capture a lot of that in the process. Yeah, yippy for him. We already use a hell of a lot of natural gas in this country, so it isn't like it is just sitting there not being used. And yeah, we know all about the sweet deal you have in Utah. Count yourself lucky. Because if T. Boones has his way, I am sure that sweet ride will come to an end once the demand goes way up around the rest of the country. Don't get me wrong though, I am for more use of natural gas as opposed to oil. It burns way cleaner and is way better for the environment and can be a great feul for automobiles. I am just pointing out that it isn't any magic bullet and T. Boones isn't doing this out of the goodness of his heart. It also isn't any cutting edge technology. They have been burning natural gas in engines since pretty much day one. In fact, very old, very simple and well proven tech. It is just that the long arm of the oil companies suppressed it so they could keep everyone hooked on their relatively crappy fuel and they have done a great job so far.
Perhaps you should follow your own advise. The United States is ranked 6th in the world for Natural gas reserves while Canada is ranked 19th. And if you check out the Pickens plan, you will find that he is only proposing it as a temporary fix until suitable alternative fuels can be developed.
A few years ago there was a car called the Natural Gasser running at norwalk on cng. I remember the guy saying he was running somthing in the upper teens for compression. If memory serves me right 468 cid. running high 8's in the 1/4. I like the fact you can make some real horse power from it.
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