Didjya ever notice that the more you fill your mind with new information and experiences, the harder it becomes to define things?!? A great example can be found in a toddler just learning to talk and identify things around him (or her)...many will refer to any four wheeled vehicle as a "car", or any four legged creature as a "doggie" or "kitty"! Later on, with the addition of more input from the world around them, young children will begin to sub-cl***ify what they see..."fox", "cow", "horse" and so on will take the place of "doggie", and "Mustang", "Camaro" or "Hummer" will take the place of just "car"!!! When I was just getting into cars, I called any modified vehicle a "custom"...anything from the General Lee, the Batmobile, Bob Falfa's 55 Chevy, or Vern Luce's 33...to Ron Pruett's 65 Mustang was a "custom" to my thinking at the time. Now, there's more to the cl***ification of "custom" than just 'a non-stock automobile' in my mind, but the deffinition continues to evolve! At this point, I consider "customs" to be cars or trucks of ANY vintage modified to improve appearance, form or function...with the focus on body, paint and stance. Lowriders fall into my deffinition of "customs" now, as do 70s custom vans, mini trucks of the 80s, 60s show rods, 50s cruisers and new cars with custom paint, wheels and air bags! "Kustoms" on the other hand...those, to me, need to be limited to pre 1965, with mods done as they would have been done in or before 1964. Use old magazines and books for reference, and stay within the loose guidelines set forth by those that started the whole "kustoms kraze"...no 20" wheels, billet covered engines or EFI crate motors hooked to 700r4 automatics! I love Custom Rods...and find them to be a**** the coolest things out there today...but I consider them to be "customs", not "kustoms". If you want to limit the show to hot rods and kustoms, go for traditional-styled 1964 and older cars and trucks only. If opening it up to hot rods and customs...well, then things can get carried away, as that's still a BIG catagory!!
Where did that come from, man? Up until then, this just seemed like a mild-mannered discussion between a few enthusiasts as to the fact that the word custom and what it actually means is so hard to define. It seems to mean something different to most everyone. Are we not allowed to use magazine cars as an example? After all, they are the ones that this wide array of people here on this board are most likely to be familiar with (since they are more than just regional phenomenon) and therefore the best cars to show as samples of what we are trying to say. I don't think anyone said we didn't like it or the mag ****ed. Maybe the term should be taboo like rat rod, else one's feathers might be ruffled? Oh no, let's not duscuss it... If the term "custom" is to apply to anything that's been modified then what are we call the cars that - for many custom enthusiats - really Do have a specific style to them? Shouldn't there be a way to easily narrow the genre down? And it's too hard to define it by the modifications done because, as Porkn****** put it, Some of the best customs are so understated that you can't really put your finger on why it looks so good and what - if anything much really has been done - Just that somehow the beauty of the shape/form of the car just jumps out at you more than normal. Then there is a car like Mick's example '55 that has heavy modification and is no doubt beautiful yet, to many so called custom guys would not necessarily fall into that category. Does that make them all wrong, or does it just point out the possible need to discuss the definition?
I myself try and keep it simple. I try and break it into 2 catagories. Anytime a car has had body mods and changes I consider it customized. Look in the 98 Custom Rodder at Darryll Starbirds Debonair. It is a 95 Lincoln Mark VIII with major body mods. It definately can be called a custom. But it can never be a Kustom. Kustoms with a big K for me is saved for the early golden years of custom cars with that traditional look we all like that the legends layed before us. So when I see a car it either gets a C or a K. Now occasionally a newer car can have a mod that is pretty bad*** and I may say " **** thats some Kustom with a K on it there. " but don't get confused. I am in no way considering it a Kustom. Just acknowledging the fact that they went for it in a big way. It can also be reversed. You can have an attempt at a traditional Kustom car where they just kept adding and extending into a bodywork abbortion, and at that time the big K can get stripped and the car gets demoted to a custom. A bad custom. The only time a car of such can keep the big K is if it was built in the golden years of Kustoms when it was O.K. to build such a monstrosity and there were alot of them built during that time.I love these but nowdays people just frown at an attempt at this. I think its because we were supposed to learn what looked good and what did'nt from the early years of Kustoms when any and everthing was being built. After typing all this I think I forgot how I tell a custom. Oh yeah. Keep it simple. Custom or Kustom C or K
I'm not going to try and define a Kustom, but I did have an idea how to solve the overcrowding of your venue. Shows like Paso Robles require a photograph of the car with early entry. I don't know how many (if any) cars actually get turned away because they don't meet some "kustom criteria", but I will say that most of the cars, at the show, would meet most HAMBers definition of a cool rod or custom. Since Paso fills up pretty quick, most folks do early entry. Again, I don't know if the guys and gals of West Coast Kustoms would actually turn a car away (early registration or day-of registration), because it was "too modern looking", or had wheels exceeding some prescribed diameter. It sounds like the Stray Kat 500 is in a similar boat as Paso. A cool small town for a venue, and only so many places to park the cars. Move to a larger venue, and you lose some of the vibe of the show. I personally think it's hard to "discriminate" against someone else's idea of a rod or custom. A cut-off date can help with that (but hell, even that can be subjective). Categorizing cars is like trying to categorize music - so many of the styles borrow from one another, or have common roots. Sure, some of it might sound ****py to your ears, but there's likely a bunch of other listeners who are totally into it. So even if you did decide to turn cars away, it's hard to define the objective criteria to be used in making the go/no-go decision on a particular car. This might create a bunch of overhead for you, but it might also allow you to stay at the same venue, and maximize the number of trad-style rods and customs in attendance. Even the Shifters are going with a similar Paso-style pre-registration for VLV. Maybe drop axle (Shifters/VLV) or HotRodHon (WCK/Paso) a PM and see if they can share some insight. Best of luck! -murph
What was it that Supreme Court Justice said about obscenity? "I'll know it when I see it"? I think that's what it's going to boil down to. Maybe, if "Kustoms get you the girls," stick the kittens at the gate and let them decide who gets in! But I would try to start with a year cut-off and evaluate from there. I would suggest maybe like what the person before said--***ign points for mods and establish a minimum point total to get in. But whatever you do--publicize the requirements!! You don't want people getting turned away because they didn't know that the rules had changed. Just my .02. Tucker
This is not to define what is or is not but the problem with this said show is space, right? Then keep the present location and add another. Then intrants can cruse from one spot to the other. This makes for a better day than parking and setting in lawn chairs. Have something of interest at both spots,vender space here, swap meet there, band over there. Just my dumb thoughts.
Here's my opinion, FWIW. Custom = Car built FOR the customer. The first examples were built to look like the luxury cars of the time, so they incorporated Caddy and Packard grills,etc. Kustom = A car built by Barris. Geprge tried to patent the use of the K way back when. Semi custom = A car with mild mods, like shaved handles and frenched lights and custom paint, lowered stance. Full custom = A car with major mods like a chopped top or sectioning. Custom rod = A car that incorporates custom style body mods but uses street rod styling cues like billit wheels and late model door handles and graphics. Usually seen in Custom Rodder mag. I think these differentions are helpful when when describing a car or deciding what cars to allow into an event. In fact I think a new lable that would be helpful would be Street G***er, used to denote a car that is raised up but never raced and doesn't have drag racing gear ratios. Or a performance built engine. The difference between Hot Rod and Street Rod has been discussed to death already so I won't touch that one. Are labels helpful? Your mileage may vary.
To me a custom is a car that has been "smoothed" via custom bodywork. It must be more radical than door handles and side trim.... I know that aint a great definition, but it works for me....
Hey Murph, Thanks for the suggestions. The reason That the show was named Stray Kat 500 was the show will be for the first 500 entries. I was told that we could get up to 600 in our area, so right know we are in good shape. I had planned to start a cut off or something like that after the fifth show. Right now we have 90% of the cars are Kustoms, (by the way what is a kustom?) Hot Rods and fifties style cars. I can see over the next couple of years parking could be a problem and I'm trying to fix it before it becomes a problem. This is how the question "What is a Kustom" got started. Thanks guys for the input. Happy Trails, Mick
Color me a TOTAL IDIOT! I thought (incorrectly) that the question was if the Red "Custom Rod" '55 on the cover was a "traditional Kustom". I am VERY sorry- I completely missed that it was asking about the copper car. I am again VERY sorry. I thought it was just another shot at Custom Rodder and it's content being "Kustom" or not. I need to be quiet and keep working on my "kustom" '56 Chevy truck.
This is an interesting topic and a hard one. I remember a KKOA show in Ohio prob late 80's a friend took his 66 Pont Cat, lowered, shaved, decked, seams filled, and so on. ***us made him/them park in a seperate place cause they were late models. To me it was more custom alot of the 50's cars I see now called customs. So I guess everyone has an opinion on what is custom. Rash "By the way, can you tell me how I can get my subscription without it looking like it was dragged all the way to my house?" Do what I do buy it off the rack and you don't get put on a mailing list and get all the junk mail either.
VERN!!!! When I saw your sled setting at the Starbird show. I told Duke to look out because Vern is going to sell his ride for big $$$. Don't tell anyone but I have a way to sneak ya in with your PT Cruizer. What are friends for. Hey Ron, 66 Pont Cat is another good example of a car that I would want to see Kustomized, and I would not run it off from the SK 500. If you have a year cut off, I'm afraid that you will miss out on kool car that deserves to be called a kustom. They're a lot of early '70s to mid '60s cars that look good Kustomized (Buick Riveras) Happy Trails, Mick
Thanks for your insight. Mickey is trying to make a legit post posing a question to help his killer show(Which is obvious to anyone that knows him ,is a labor of love for him) and this is the best you can contribute. I agree with the fact that you know it when you see it as far as kustoms go but explaning that to even SOME seasoned car guys is a tough task at times. "Traditional" anything is hard to define in words I guess you just have to feel it. There will always be those guys that don't understand and never will ,but like weve talked about before those guys will just ***** about not getting a trophy but they we still probably come back next year. I just hope I start having problems like running out of room with my little show!
I going to p*** my car to my kid when he is 16 if he wants it...I kenw you could help me get my cruizer in *cause you know people*
You have two issues: 1) How to limit entries to 500 appropriate cars (Customs). 2) How to define a Custom. Lets take the second item first. Defining a Custom or Kustom is a t***** issue. If you define by year, make, or country of origin, good stuff gets left out, and inappropriate stuff gets in. The Kustom Kemps of America abandoned the 1935-64 years breaks a long time ago. They were set up at the beginning as a way of letting people know what the club was about, when customs were out of fashion. Jerry ***us knew what he liked, but really had no way to determine if there were enough like-minded folks to start a national organization. The year breaks roughly encomp***ed several styles of cars and several styles of customizing, and neatly excluded pony cars and street machines. Excluding muscle cars was the only way to focus on what he wanted the public to see, and hopefully embrace again. And we did. The problem was that Jerry has always wanted the KKOA to be family-oriented and welcoming of young enthusiasts. He realized that the supply of earlier cars would eventually dry up, become expensive, and exclude the very people he wanted to attract: the new generation of custom car nuts. So he set up a Late-Model division to showcase post-1964 cars which were traditionally (and sometimes otherwise) modified. They were parked separately to showcase the possibilities of later and cheaper cars. During the eighties Jerry championed the Smoothy, a later-year car styled traditionally. As they were accepted, the year breaks were dropped and those car moved in with the older cars. His New Concept Custom seen in recent years is just an extension of this idea. Custom cars as fall somewhere between art and industrial design. Thinking of cars as art helps clarify what you mean by custom. In the Cl***ic era, custom-bodied cars were built on ch***es supplied by the manufacturer. In the USA, only Derham survived World War Two. In the UK and Europe, coachbuilders lasted through the sixties. The USA turned to customizers to make their cars look different and better by blending art and craft on m***-produced vehicles. They were unique, at least until others started copying them. If you think of Kustoms as a school of art, it becomes easier to say what belongs and what does not. Rely on the style and not the car underneath. Take Art Deco design as an example. It encomp***ed many styles: Streamline Moderne, Oriental, Southwest, to name but a few. The design school produced furniture, clothing, architecture, vehicles, and both fine and applied art. A designer today could produce a building or toaster, or painting in a recognizably Art Deco style that is still unique and different from all that has p***ed. Call it Neo-Deco, just as other revived art styles have been. It would fit comfortably in an Art Deco show. Which leads us back to the cars. If you place the emphasis on style, rather than on the year breaks, you will have something to hang your hat on. Think of it as an art show rather than a car show. Emphasize the concept. I dig post-war styles as we all do - thats why were here. Unlike many though, I can see doing kustom work on many neglected late model cars. It would need to be the right body with the right proportions and the right flow - but I can see it. Id like to see what can be done by a creative customizer in the traditional style. Remember, the 1949 Mercury was just another car until somebody though it would look better with a lower lid. That brings us to the first issue: limiting registration to 500 cars. If you think of it as a stylistic art show, you can control who get in. Just as wildlife art show can select the type of art that is displayed (Not wildlife? Sorry.), you can select the type of custom displayed (Not traditional? Sorry.) You will have to make a point in your advertising that this is something different and stick to it. Require a photo with every application. Over time it becomes something special and different and well-understood. And well attended. The added benefit as the sponsor of the show: You can advertise that exhibition is LIMITED to the first 500 pre-registrations ACCEPTED by the sponsors. In one fell swoop you solve the style issue and create demand, maybe even a sold-out show prior to opening day.
Well, I was going to bring my '64 this year, but now after reading this post, it appears as if its neither hot rod or kustom. So I guess I will just save my $15 plus whatever gas I would have spent and simply ride with a friend instead. From the sounds of it, somone else will gladly fill that spot anyhow.
I've had several conversations with car guys I know about "Hotrod-streetrod-custom, etc" and there's been some agreeing one way or the other but nobody could ever come up with one answer every one could agree with. My opinion has always been that a customized car that was modified for looks is a custom (I'm not sure what a "Kustom" is. I always spell that word with a C!). I have a friend with a 52 Chev. four-door that has frenched '40 ford tail lights, sunken licence plate, shaved handles, modified trim but he has never tried to modify the drive train (or body) to make it go faster. Around here we call it a custom. I would even go so far as to call it a "traditional custom" as it uses parts and techniques (all vintage parts, scallops and pinstriping, steel wheels) that were available and used when these cars were first being customized. My car however (57 Chev 4door) has been modified to make it go faster. However I have done some customizing for looks as well (removed trim, removed grill, painted a couple of times, white walls, raised rear end and taller rear tires to give it a nice rake, etc. And if you saw our two cars side by side you might wonder if either are "customized" or "hot-rodded" cars. I think it's simple: my car has mostly been modified for speed and his mostly for appearance. He calls his car a custom, I call mine a hopped up or hot-rodded car. You can nit-pick as to whether a car is a "mild custom" or a "radical custom" by degree of modification but I think it all boils down to personal taste and "Does it look good?" Because a modified PT Loser IS a "custom" it just happens to be gay. However if anyone ever tells me their dodge neon is a "Kustom Kar" I might have to punch them in the face.
To me Kustoms are about STYLE. Hot rods are about SPEED. Kustom involves changing a car from its original design for estetic reasons. If it bolts on (wheels, spindles, lowering kits, etc) it don't count. Just paint doesn't count. Hot Rods are about changing a car to go faster. Ya, there is crossover. As to the year thing....not much after the early 60's WORTH Kustomizing.
After wading through all 3 pages of what is a hot rod or a custom here is what I come up with. It depends on what year you were born. I agree with the pre-entry with a photo.
Mick, I think 40Studedude has put it best about what a Kustom is and what it isn't. Any ride with modifications can be a custom in the wide sense of the word. The key word here is traditional for those who love the early rides. I think the definition of what early Kustoms are is very clear in 40SD post and I agree with it. There was a lot of reasons for customs coming back and several custom guys had a lot to do with it, not just one individual. Set a cut off date for your show with a picture of the car entry to make sure it's in line with your shows requirments. If, your entry items are not meet return the entry to sender. The West Coast Kustoms uses this system to control their entry's. Good luck with the show.......................... CRUISER
Take a picture of a car and then hit the black and white feature in PhotoShop. If someone can't tell if it was built 50 years ago or just finished..... ..that is a traditional Kustom or Hot Rod. Brian
I think it is better to send a photo in of the car instead of having a year cut off. If you remember John D'Agostino has had some very nice post '64 rides that where made. His 67 Lincoln, 67 Eldorado..Were those full customs.. yes..Are those traditional..well its up for you to decide..I for one perfer more of the 40's -mid 50s customs, but those two are very nice and wouldnt mind seeing those at a show, but on the contrary if I shaved lowered laced metalflaked astro supreme wheeled my new magnum would that be a custom..No...would you like to see it parked to some of your customs..NO... The question that seems to also have been formed here is what is a custom or Kustom. I like the defintion that Pat Ganahl gives in his "The American Custom Car"..I cant find it right now but I think he has 3 distinct catagories for what he thinks customs are... If somebody has the book maybe they could post his definitions are... Even if you look at the wonderful new book that came out Kustomland..In that book some of the cars are pretty much stock except for lowering and some wild paint..They consider those Kustoms... I think certain things that are done traditionally to a car to deviate it form being stock would put it into a certain cl*** of Custom or Kustom...
Up until post #49, this thread is from February 2006. The simple answer is any cars after a certain year must have X number of restyling changes to the body or they're not allowed in. Wheels, tires and lowered suspension doesn't count; chops, sections, restyled front or rear sections are. Unfortunately that would allow in that abortion of a Lumina someone posted the other day with the '58 Caddy tail section, but 60's show cars weren't always known for good taste either.
Well at least some FNG's use the Search-function then I guess But obviously the original topic is still 'hot'.
The ultimate custom to me is one where you can't tell what the original car is. Like Kustom 7777's shoebox project. I believe in the old days, if you were nosed, decked, shaved, and ran a custom grill and tailights. You were automatically in the custom cl***ification.
I agree with ya Mike. That is a big reason that I'm a big fan of the early day Kustoms. They were making it up as they go and some of them messed up some cars. But they were willing to try something that no one has done before. One of my old "Restyle" Little magazines, they have an article on "How to build a custom car." Within the article they encourge you to think and try to do something that no one has done before. Or you can take the eay way out and copy what someone else has done. I refuse to think that everything has been done before............ I saw this Merc (see pictures below) last year and it is one of my favorite Kustoms. I would almost call it perfect. The Merc is heavily Kustomized but you kan't tell it. I'm sure the guy still hears that "I had one just like it...." Another reasons why I love the Kustom car is because of the art form. For example check out a stock 40 Mercury Coupe. One of the ugliest tops you will ever see on a car. Just chopping the top you convert the car into an ulitimate Kustom. Can you imagine the reaction when the first one was chopped. It had to have locked them up and lost their body functions. WOW what a conversion..... The mild kustom is the background of our hobby. You saw more of these around then chopped Mercs. Seeing a car with clean lines is hard to beat......
That is the first time I saw a good side view pic. That is attention to detail, the raked stance of the whole car matching the raked, lower in front chop. Nice. I agree, try something new. They don't always have to be taildraggers.
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