I'm building a 57 Dodge D500, 325 cubic inch hemi. Does anyone know of an electronic fuel injection system, either throttle body or multi-point, which would work on this engine using the stock 4 barrel intake? If so, where are they for sale? I have already checked with the people at Holley and their technical people tell me their systems won't work on this engine. Why, I don't know.
It will run that engine, it just wont fit the manifold and you will need an electronic dstributor I think. As far as the mixture it f doesnt matter what engine it is on , all motors running gasoline require the same mixture. Make an adapter for you engine and then put one on. A throttle body system from a 90 318 or 360 would work. Heck, the distruibutor would even fit. If you can install it and pretend it is a 318 magnumand not a 325 and duplicate the setup the same including the coolant sensor the engine wont know the difference. That is just one of several possibilties. Not all info from the tech people is good unfortunatley. They probably dont even know that chrysler pioneered EFI in exactly 1958 with the help of Bendix corp. it was withdrawn but not because it didnt work but because it was oversensitive to hydro lines and interference from other eleictrcal devices. We now know how to prevent it. The patents were sold to bosch and the same technoligy is used to this day exceo pt the electronics is now difgital instead of ****og. VW and Cadilac also used version of this same system in the 60s. I have worked on both of those.
I'd look into a Megasquirt setup, I've been happy with mine. Check with Matt Cramer at DIYAutotune and he'll get you going. I bought mine in kit form, cause I enjoy projects like that (Every damn diode!) But you can get the completed deals. You'll need a laptop, which aint a big deal.
Convert your intake. Just drill holes in all the runners and hold the injectors with a fuel rail or thread the injectors and screw them in. Gut the carb, plug the holes and that is the throttle body. I use SDSEFI electronics. No laptop.
That's just a little bit of an oversimplification. For proper sealing it takes some actual machine work or the welding in of bungs.
http://www.imagineinjection.com/ give bob a call, he can tell you honestly what you are in for. they can handle modifying your intake, and any components you need.
In the latest Rod and Custom they have an article on the Ala Kart and Brizio's should know about injection on a small Hemi. They drove it into the GNRS, so it must run.
"the people at Holley and their technical people tell me their systems won't work on this engine" That's one of the reasons why their product doesn't sell very well - they have no idea what they're talking about. When it was introduced, a customer approached me about an installation. I read through the manual, and was stunned to see that there was no input for engine vacuum. None. At. All. I called to speak to the "tech people" about this, and not only did they not see it as a problem, they didn't know what I was talking about. That was over 20 years ago - I see the same people still work there.
Word. A lot of guys who sell this **** don't know how it works. Once you figure it out it is cool as **** and it works really well. A single 4 barrel on a hemi will make lots of vacuum depending on your cam. 17 inches of vacuum is minimum. If you want to run a big cam with lots of overlap use throttle position only. 300 injectors 1000 computer 180 air fuel gauge 200 efi pump 150 efi regulator couple of hundred for plumbing and you are running
And your picture shows us what about your install? nothing. show us the holes where the injectors thread or seat? just because something works half ***ed doesn't mean you should do it that way. How about we get the guy to do it correctly...
Yeah it was really ****ed up. 650 hp at the wheels 14.3:1 air fuel mix to 7500. idles at 800 rpm. Pump gas, 10.41 et
How many miles on it? I'm taking it from the 10.41 that it's pretty much just a drag car. If all you did was tap the holes, what did you do about a sealing surface? How thick was the manifold? Did it get more than 3 or 4 threads? If all you did was drill a hole for the injectors to stick through how did you get them to seal? Come on enough with the ********, quit with the oversimplification. And if that is all you did it may be working now but what if you put 20k or 30k on the thing. Your smart *** answers just don't cut it....
http://auto-nomics.com/usersgroup.html#dailydriver That's my old work truck with the little motor..!!
Woah, I stand corrected. No, I have not built a fuel injected hemi and driven it 40000 miles. I am ***uming you have, it would be awesome if you could put up a few photos...
See there you go being an ***.... I guess when someone calls you out for doing something half ***ed or suggesting it you just retreat into smart *** mode. Maybe try and help the guy build something instead of half ***ing it. Or maybe that's just the way you do it? You continue to prove my point by not admitting that to do it right there is more to it than just drilling and/or tapping some holes to put injectors in a manifold. I can't afford to do it that way my customers would take their business elsewhere. I haven't built a 40k injected Hemi, but then again I bet you haven't either, despite what you say, then again go ahead and keep doing it, lately half ***ed **** like that has been keeping me busy at work.
That's actually a pretty good article, but they skip some of the do it yourself stuff like Mega Squirt... Which is a personal favorite of mine. Their forums are a ton of help if you're looking at fuel injection. Especially if you can't buy it for your particular engine. http://www.msefi.com/index.php http://bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/
I built a Mega Squirt set up with a Holley replacement throttle body a few years back, actually had to used a 4 barrel manifold and made an adapter to adapt the throttle body to it. They're 670cfm and work pretty well, like I said in the other reply check out the Mega Squirt forums, you can put a setup together really easy, if you have an aluminum manifold bungs are available and pretty easy to put in and run a multi point setup. I prefer to TIG them in. But I'd think you'd be happy with one of the throttle bodies, and with an air cleaner on they're pretty much out of sight. There's a few of the throttle bodies on ebay.. like this one There are 4 barrel models I've seen but they flow over 1000cfm and may be more than you need.
Actually it is only about getting the electronic injectors to seat in the manifold. A stock early hemi 4 bbl intake is cast iron, I believe. So there are two ways to do it, fuel rails or tapping the injectors. In a fuel rail application you are correct, machining is required to make a factory style seat for the o ring to seal against. More machining is then required to make a fuel rail for the tops of the injector smaller o rings to seal into. Then a hold down bolts from the fuel rail to the manifold to seal the injector from top to bottom. The other way is to tap the injectors. Hilborn uses this method to secure the injectors on the efi manifolds on thier website. The injectors are threaded on a lathe ideally, but I have tapped them with a regular die and it has always been succsessful. Craig at Blower Drive Service can supply you with already threaded Bosch style injectors for a pretty goog deal. The problem on this manifold is the difference in metals between the cast intake and the aluminum injector body. As I was thinking about this it occurred to me that you could buy an aluminum bung and interference fit this to holes drilled into the intake like aluminum spark plug tube seals for the 426 hemi's. The injectors have an o ring at the top of the treads against the shoulder of the injector body that seals it but I have threaded them in with anti sieze and no o ring without a problem. Also what kind of car is it going in? If it is a restoration you could get fancy and put the injectors underneath, I have seen a guy on ebay have something like this for sale. The only other thing to do is pull vacuum from someplace for the MAP sensor and fit a throttle position sensor ot his carb which is now a throttle body. This is the only problem you will have doing this, the rest is pretty standard computer tuning like has been previously mentioned in Hot Rod mag etc. I would blow off the knock sensor unless you have compression issues but those earle hemi's were pretty low compression. Plus to control your timing with the computer you need a crank trigger. Moroso sells one and I have used it but it required special spacers, again more machining. I have heard you can drill holes in your balancer and glue in magnets but I have not done this. The retrofitting of these old motors is the *****, but it's a lot easier than shops make it out to be. Believe me I found out the hard way, by paying someone who has never done it to learn while I am paying by the hour. And even then the only reason I took it back was because they couldn't figure it out. That is why I know how to do this. Still no photos?
You can get a regular Holley throttle body system to work on any factory 4 barrel intake, you just have to use a carb adapter plate to a standard holley flange. I've done it many times. You can hide just about all of the system and no one will ever know, unless you remove the air cleaner. All of the new Holley systems use a MAP and O2 sensor for calibration. The system can be run by a points distributor and if you want can also control the timing if you lock the distributor. I would recommend to at least put a Pertronix conversion in to make it run better.
Again Craig at BDS. That dude has done this a lot, he doesn't mind helping people figure out thier own **** and sell you the parts. Good guy.
do you machine the surface for the o-ring to seal against? most manifolds as cast wouldn't be very good surface to seal to. I'm just saying the details like that are what will make it reliable for a street driven situation. And I wouldn't trust them with just anti-seize and no o-ring. The first electronic fuel injected Ferrari's used threaded injectors, they were a ***** to keep sealed if everything wasn't clean let alone if the surface was uneven. and sorry no photos, I don't usually mess with Hemi's...
Well , i tell ya what i did to my 322 CI GMC in my model A ( and a few others as well). We make a four barrell adapter plate to bolt a GM TBI unit to the four barrel intake. Then i use a GM computer from a TBI GM truck and buy a custom harness from Larrys Electric in Ruma Illinois. The advantage here( that most dont discuss) is that all the programing is done by the GM folks on the orginal vehicle. Spark advance is electronic with knock sensor control. TPS and idle spped are built in the TBI unit and the air flow rates are from 2.8L up to the 454 big block chevy. When the key is turned on the engine thinks its in a GM TBI equpped vehicle and runs like one should. We use a adjustable fuel pressure regulator for fuel trim adjustment, and the injector flow rates can be easiely and cheaply changed or trade up or down. My GMC needed 350 V8 injectors and the fuel pressure is set at 20 lbs. I painted the TBI with eastwood paint and hid most of the stuff, installed a air cleaner and everyone thinks its just another one of those holly carbs. Fuel economy jump up four mpg and it idles and starts great! I personally have never seen a aftermarket unit that can full fill the entire range of driveability we need on these cars as good as the factory. They will run good wide open and often actually perform kinda well but never a total system. www.lindertech.com pm for more info........
So the staff at Holley ****s more than the vaccuum on their TBI setup. Worth keeping in the information file.
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