My cousin and I were talking about the difficulty of finding good used aluminum heads for the 217 engines. We were wondering about the feasibility of producing one out of billet aluminum using a CNC machine. This would probably need to be a two-piece head, with a top and a bottom, so the water p***ages can be created without casting and cores. With modern sealants and other tricks, top-to-bottom sealing should not be a problem. Does anyone have a junk 217 head? I'd like to cut it open to see the shape and size of the water p***ages. I don't even need an entire head, probably just the two end cylinders. If this turns out to be feasible, we can design them with plenty of water jacket area and nice fins. Serendipity.
Its a 217.8, but I've heard a few other people call them 217's but from the majority of people, 218 is what I hear people call them
I've been working on this very thing for the 218/230 off and on for a few years, I'm hoping to have it done and in limited production by next summer. Getting a combustion chamber that actually performs well has been a challenge. As far as physically making one goes, materials cost is the biggest factor(you're looking at nearly $600 just for the aluminum, provided you don't want really deep fins on the top plate), then add machining costs. CNC time isn't cheap, and there's alot of milling to do to hollow out the lower half. The inside of the stock head looks alot like the outside does with approximatly 3/8-1/2" on the deck and 1/4"ish for the sides and top of the casting.
Not a lot of problems, a few people make 2 piece Flathead Ford heads and V-12 Lincoln heads! The finished product is only as nice as the time spent on programming and R & D....
Interesting. We should compare notes. My cousin has aluminum and a CNC machine. (Nice cousin, right?) Wow! 1/2 of cast iron on the deck!? Holy moly these heads are tough. No wonder they can accept big mills. It sounds like you are really trying to optimize HP. We were thinking of simply replicating the stock combustion chamber, perhaps with slightly higher compression.
If you just want the look, it would be conciderably cheaper to machine a cover that fits tight over the stock iron head. It could even be held down with the stock head bolts. You wouldn't have to worry about it leaking either. This is the inside of a head someone posted awhile back. It's a Ford, not Chrysler, but the Mopar looks about the same.
Yes, we actually started talking about that - how you could take a piece of 1 inch plate and mill it so that it sat atop the stock cylinder head. This would add some height to the engine and would look good, but it is all show - like modern cars that put plastic covers over their engines. We then figured we could take it a step further and create an entire new head. At this point, that's where we are heading. No pun intended. Thanks for posting the photos of the cut Ford head.
Not sure if you're interested or not, but Earl Edgerton of Edgy Cams already makes a cast, finned aluminum head for these engines. At least a couple HAMBers have them and are pleased.
Not familiar with the engine but that is a m***ive cnc jobit would be much cheaper to buy those cast heads .unless you can get orders for several sets you are looking at a set of heads worth $5000-$6000!I made a shifter for one of my cars on a mazak cnc turning center,after the stainless steel,the reverse engineering,and the labor it is worth $2000
Well, he has the aluminum, the CNC machine and the CAD software. So this won't cost anything because otherwise we'd just be fooling around with something else! Someone on another list graciously offered to send me a junk 218 head so we will cut it apart to see what it looks like inside.
Well here is the deal, a mopar 23 inch head is basically a Mopar 23 inch head mechanical fitment would include Plymouth 201, 217.8, and 230 engines. They would also fit Dodge Truck 217.8's and 230's as well as Dodge Car 217.8's and 230's. And in this day of hybrids perhaps a CNC'd bottom piece and a cast top piece might be considered. Casting the coolant p***ages and fins, but milling the combustio chambers. Edgerton aslo has a one off overhead valve conversion piece. Check out his salt flats push truck..... I have a nonuseable edmunds head I could make available for combustion chamber templates. I am located outside of syracuse, NY. PM if interested.
Being a CNC manufacturer myself,I can tell you that having CAD software by itself is absolutely useless in trying to produce any finished product. CAD in and of itself cannot process the info in the 2D drawing you created to do anything. You will need CAM software to actually take your drawing to the next level and actually create surfaces and features that can be recognized as bosses, pockets, or even holes so a program can be generated. Without having that capability, CAD is only going to be a drafting tool to look at on your drawing on your computer screen, and thats as far CAD will be able to take you....
At $750 it is way cheaper than some of the options mentioned here. I was looking at purchasing one for the wife's 55 Plymouth but have decided an engine swap would be a better idea as we really want to drive it all the time on long trips. Yes, I know a flathead can be made reliable and all that but a late model supercharged V6 engine with O/D auto and EFI would make a real driver out of it. Maybe not strictly traditional but it would still look that way with period style cosmetic updates. Lowering, Full disc hubcaps, Whitewalls, Spots, Pinstripes, Scallops, etc
The EDGY seems expensive, but when you compare to a used vintage head(nearly imposible to find), or what it would cost to CNC one, it becomes much more reasonable. It's a known quan***y and performs as advertised. It's also less than you'd spend on a pair of good aluminum performance heads for the average V8.
K. Pardon my misuse of the terminology. My cousin has the necessary stuff because he does this for a living.
I think the Edgy head is the way to go, at $750 it's half what a vintage head would go for on e-pay. Something to consider if you buy a vintage head - I think it would be a good idea to have any of those vintage heads checked for flatness, they will warp when over-heated. I found this out recently - the Sharp head on the 230 in my '46 Ply warped after overheating due to failure of a rubber freeze-out plug some fool idiot put in the motor. Local machine shop had to mill it .025 to get it flat, cost= $90. I had Earl grind a cam for the hopped-up 230 in my '39 Ply. The engine runs great.
Great! Then you have everthing to do it. Make sure you post pics of your progress, im sure you will have others that will be interested in a cylinder head also....
No, not at all, good luck with your project. The CAD/CAM terminology is a simple mistake, especially if you are not that familiar with it as you said. So im all for someone taking the initiative to tackle such a task. You have the machine, your cousin to do his thing with the programming and stuff and the software....go for it! My hats off to you.
LOL, OK, thanks! Much apprecited. Well, Murphy's Law hit me today. My 49 Plymouth was hard starting and then was only running on four cylinders and was blowing white smoke. Pulled the plugs and #6 had coolant on it. Compression check: front 4 OK, number five was blowing out thru number six and vice versa. Pulled the head and the head gasket was blown between five and six. Oh well.
Nope. No time. Still have my 49 apart - using the time to do womeother work on it. But with everything else not too much time for playing around.
Unless you're sure of a market where start-up costs can be amortized over a production run of 100 pieces, this just isn't cost-effective. A big advantage would be if you found that the 237/251/265 head was extremely similar (except for bore pitch, bore diameter, valve sizes), and could be scaled up in your program with only minor effort - those engines have nothing available and are becoming more popular. To sell, the "perceived value" is going to be based on the price of the Edgy head - because it's there. You could undercut him as a sales tool, but his costs are much lower than yours and his tooling is paid for. The other alternative is to find some advantage that he doesn't have, and price accordingly. Someone ready to pay $3/4K for a head isn't going to stop at another $.1K for a big improvement. My first thought: dual plugs, or a 2nd plug in an alt location (tough to do on an existing head). Better water circulation - this should be easy, most of these things have no diverters, vanes etc. - the water comes in from several places, just floats along, and leaves. There are easy ways to make the water follow a longer path before leaving and achieve higher temperature, protect certain areas more (plugs and exhaust pocket). I'd like to see more done on the dome relief, but that requires a specific piston to be used - $$. I'd certainly make the chamber volume as small as practical (8:1 CR?), with enough thickness at the piston quench area and pockets to permit enlargement as needed without getting a bath. Cosmetically, making the head taller than stock may look more impressive, as will cast or machined-in structural shapes. Fins look nice but Edgy already did that so it's not going to get points for unique styling. Just my own taste, but I'd have a 2" solid rail with extra threaded holes where Edgy has bolt bosses and fins on the front and driver's side, and suggest it as a jumping off place for adding a more complex manifold, brackets for a blower, etc. A logo is a big selling point - have you considered a catchy obsolete name for the product yet?
The 25" Chrysler head also had a 218, as well as 237/251/265. As Panic said, there is almost nothing repopped for those engiones, so that might be a better starting place if you want to have a Edgy-like head.
You can estimate the potential market by this quote from Edgerton: “I have sold 50 to 60 heads, total”
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