At what point does performance hinder driveability?

Just wondering how far a guy should take it when building a street motor? I want a driver but my hotrod roots tend to have me gravitate to the performance section rather than the pretty stuff. The "need for speed" sometimes renders a car useless for long cruises. Where does a guy stop?

 

At least humor me and act like you care.....

 

I think some guys play the numbers game--if they can't say the engine makes 450+ horsepower then it doesn't turn them on. Fact is, you can build a steel highboy roadster that weighs around 2,200 pounds or so. A 200 hp engine (with appropriate gearing, of course) will feel reasonably zippy in such a light car, and a 300hp engine will feel pretty damn fast.

As an example, a 300hp engine in a 2200lb car has a 7.34:1 weight-to-power ratio, which puts it in Ferrari/Dodge Viper/high-end Porsche territory--cars that have been tested in the 12 second range in the quarter mile. And these days it's just not that hard or expensive to build a rock solid reliable, daily driver 300hp small block engine.

Every time I see a stripped-down T-bucket with a blown big block in it I wonder if the driving experience is any fun at all.

 

I'd say if it won't idle without goosing the gas regularly at a stop or idles so high rpm it won't let a (automatic) trans down shift into low, (early Olds Hydros are like that, they idle at 365 rpm stock, no ****) it's too hairy.
I'd also say if the cam "requires" a higher than stock stall torque converter then it's reaching into the drivability by just being inefficient for anything but WFOT acceleration.
Also if the engine needs high rear gears to come into it's power range, but is running over, say, 3500 rpm at "Highway speed" it's gonna wear out a lot sooner and drive you deaf a lot sooner than if it runs 2800 rpm at "highway speed"

Another thing is if you have a light car, skinny *** tires and a lot of torque with a "sticky" clutch, it's gonna be a bear to take off from a light with out worrying about "Exhibition of speed, spinning tires." citations. That's why quick changes were made....highway gear/hotrod gear

 

To my reconing the best you can do is have a car that can put the power to the road without losing too much traction on acceleration.If you have far more power than the car can put to the road whats the point.On real high tune cars the tickover is lumpy,fuel bills are over the top and slow speeds are just a plain pain.As long as you have enough power to shovel you up to high speeds in warp factor 10 there aint no point in having power over that unless you boast a lot to ya buddies...............Marq

 

Ya see , this kinda all stems from a desire to have a blown sbc in my 36. I have a buddy that lives down the road and he runs a 454 with an 8-71 BDS and a full blown cage etc.
He can't run with us to say...the HAMB drags. He would hafta trailer it and pull it behind his 02 Tahoe. Not much fun, huh? But......that thing is a hoot at WOT. Gives me a stiffy. I hafta keep reeling myself back in.....trying to convince myself that I don't need a blower on the street.
The other thing is the "look" that a 6-71 gives to an otherwise somewhat run of the mill SBC. In Hop Up issue 2,pg 20-23 there's a deuce sedan with the setup I am talking about. It changes the whole look of the car.
I dunno......I talk myself into and out of this all the time. Just ask Rashy.

 

At first I wasn't really sure where you were going with that question.
Sort of like somebody asks " How much does it hurt?" After you hit your thumb with a hammer, Ohh.. about 63%....

I guess performance hinders driveablity as soon as you cant toss your car keys to a non car person without a long list of the things they have to do, or cant do.
But we will put up with a lot more...

 

Good point.......not that I would ever do that(hand a non-car person my keys) but...good point.
I'll use my wife for that. She has been around hot rods since we met but she has no idea how to feather the throttle to keep one running while holding tha same foot on the brake pad.

 

They ut blowers in Lincolns for the street...
it's not the fact that it's got a blower, it's the whole package, rear gears etc are important to driveability...
Big Don Palfreyman got way good mileage in the Egorama, better than Samiyam did and Don Palfreyman's got a blower in his '34 Ford

 

712 ci....plus Nitrous....and a Lenco....and a spool....

Guy drives it on the street....sometimes!

 

I have a friend that runs a 6-71 on a 383 chevy. He underdrives it most of the time, so it is pretty "driveable", yet still has the bad***ed look.

 

I think HP is good and the more the better.. BUT... To be a good drive, it has to be realible, can run on pump gas (and not ping), not overheat in traffic or run at such a high RPM on the freeway that it worries you (even a little bit). Basically, you would get in it and drive it anywhere, anytime.. So build that blower motor but keep the boost down and the cam within reason, and either use a overdrive or reasonable rear gears. Blowers are *****in

 

<font color="green">Root,

Mine, for all that it is, is teetering on the fence of being a pain in the *** to drive a long distance.

Ok, it IS a pain in the *** to drive a long distance, trying not to sound like a puss.

I don't think I will ever get used to the lumpy idle.

HankCash sure seemed to enjoy it though!!

Hell, I even let the Monkey man drive it a while back.

RASHY </font>

 

How do you define driveability? If rumbuling around town a couple of days a week and going to the drags is it, I say the more (hp) the merrier. On the other hand if you're useing it as a daily driver or takeing road trips up and down the highway very often perhaps a little milder tune up is in order.

 

I'll tell ya kinda what I wanna do.....

I wanna road trip this thing like crazy, but I can't stomach the thought of a stock motor.

 

Some of the problems I've had in just one car. I had an old Mopar with a high stall convertor and L60's. There was a hill next to the police station leaving the junior college. I tried to ease it, but on rainy days I could not get up this hill without drying it. I shopped for tires based on which were quieter when spinning. It also overheated in traffic as I did not swap the 383 radiator for a 440 one when I did the engine. It pinged with 10:1 and even water injection only partly solved it. I fiddled with timing as the weather changed. And you could not punch it other than pointed straight ahead or you were just racing the rear of the car to see who was first. Was it too much? Yes. Would I do it again? I'm doing it on three now as my last hurrah of car building. Power to weight is 8#/HP for the dual quad big block '39, 7:1 for the 4-2bbl V8 260Z and 5:1 for a blown EFI'ed Model Y. All 3 will run M/T's.You don't want to look back and say I shoulda...

 

I can't live with a stock motor either. My driver tudor runs some head work, a mild cam and three 94's. Goes down the road on one carb but thank god for progressive linkage.

 

I tend to build what I have. I can't stand 350's. Just a pet peeve of mine. Not that they are bad...just not for me.

Here's what I have: a freshly bored 327 small journal with a bad crank. A 283 with a good steel crank but the block needs to be bored.......see where this is going?

 

Outstanding question, Root. This is kind of a touchy subject with me....

If you can't drive it to work everyday, then jump in it and do a 2500 mile round trip to the HAMB Drags, IT AIN'T A ****IN STREET CAR!!!!!!

-Abone.

 

The buddy of mine with the blown 454 says....it's a race car if you can't run it on pump gas.

 

it has to be looked at as a total package

and weighed against your own threshold of pain

the total package being the cars ability to behave well in traffic and the long haul,

and you have to be physicaly ready to handle the strain (pain).

with the right ergonomics and a good ballance of power and overall performance I would say there is potential for a car that could be driven to work one day, haul *** for fifteen hours straight the next, do two hundred at Boneville and drive home.

my car can haul *** but as for the rest of that.. nope never will.

I would bet you could go out and buy a car for only a few hundred thou that could though.

Paul

 

Paul, I kinda wondered about your car when typing this...I have been watching you build it and figured you would have some input....


Where is Racefab when you need sarcasm?(inside joke)

 

probably the biggest h***le is having to repack the 'chute at every stoplight.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Where is Racefab when you need sarcasm

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at a funeral..................

 

my 64 corvette convert sux cause i fell into the bigger badder engine game. too big of a cam too much compression too many cui

i can only drive it 60 miles on 16 gallons of gas,motor turns 3000 rpm on the highway .

any trip over 25 miles becomes no fun. you cant here yourself think and its tough to get race fuel any where.

 

Chris, you can have your hot rod and drive it.
First, there are plenty of cars with blowers in our locality that are driven..
Three come to mind, Darrel Scribners 41 chevy truck. he has a warmed over 350/700R4 and a Wiend blower.
Jim Goucher has a little 70 Nova with a pretty hot 350 and TH350 with high stall converter and Wiend Blower coumplimented with a 200hp NOS.
These cars may be driven from here to MCallister, Ok, Ureaka Springs, Ark, or any other such place on any given saturday and to the local cruise that night.
Ask Carl Blanton about Gouchers Blue Nova.
Jum raced the car at MOKAN for lotsa seasons.
Jim also worked at the track for a while.
Ike Woodrow is another blower driven guy.
His is in a 73 Chevy short wide bed.
All three of these cars are 10 second cars with out the bottle.
With the bottle, Gouchers Nova has ran mid 9's
All three will tell you that after you drive a car with a blower, you wont drive one without.

The point is, you can have a streetable, drivable hot rod that will scorch the tires at the stop light or at the "TREE"
I think the key is pump gas and highway rear gears.

 

I think there are two items of modern technology that can make this compromise work well.

First, use a modern transmission with an overdrive high gear. With an aggressive rear gear, it gives you plenty of gear (and dig) in the lower gears, without buzzing your motor on the highway.

Second, use a modern roller cam. My coupe has a hydraulic roller with short events, but over .500 lift. It has an idle only a little zoomier than a stocker, a very impressive midrange, and good hp approaching the redline.

I understand that your preferred motor is a small block with great throttle response and high rev limit, and this cam might not exactly fit into that mold. You should at least consider it, though, if the goal is to have a car that is no-kidding streetable and at least respectably quick.

 

I hear ya on the 350, Root, although I've built a couple of 355s that I enjoyed very much.

It appears that you have a 302 in mind, and I can think of only one more-interesting and streetable SBC, and that's a SJ 327 -- full stroke; the 302 is very excitable when built as it should be. The longer stroke of the 327 will be greatly appreciated in the day-to-day real world, and you'll hardly miss the 302's extra Rs when you stretch your properly built 327 all the way out and listen to it howl. Return to basics and fit it with solid lifters and an appropriate cam and springs and you won't be disappointed.

It seems a shame to mask that beautiful 327 intake howl with a big lump of an air pump. Holley still makes their *****in' DZ-style Z28 manifold which willingly accepts the 4150 DP of your choice, available in flow increments of 50 cfm, from 600 to 850.

Forget about converter stall speeds and lockup and all that silliness, and just mate the motor to a stout manual five-speed with a diaphragm clutch and then select your final-drive ratio accordingly.

You won't miss a lick and won't be embarr***ed on the street or elsewhere.

 

"There's no replacement for displacement"

Personally, I'd go for something with biiig cubes, running a reasonably mild tune, then you've got m***es of power and torque, it'll run all day in traffic, and it'll look the part when you're all pulled over and ********ting with the boys. Big block Chevy/Ford/Mopar whatever, with ally heads to keep the weight down?

If gas wasn't $6 a gallon I'd build one myself over this side of the pond

 

With the overdrive transmissions available today, highway gears are no longer a problem. The trouble with most rodders is that they don't look at the whole package, and make the various parts work together - which will give you a high 10/low 11 sec. car with street manners.
I'm trying to do that with my g***er that I'm building. Due to physical limitations I had to forgo my roadster, and think about a car with more room, and a roof.
I have a blower, a 406, 4.11 rear gears and shifts is building me a 700r4. It should, if my calculations are correct, allow me to run 10s, cruise at about 2600 rpm on the highway, and get fair mileage.
With the roll down back window and push out windshield, I'll have old style air conditioning. And the A100 seats should provide support for a bad back. And I'll have a coupe with a full hood, for the second time in my life.

Mutt