OK, I know this'll prolly cause a ****storm, but I'm curious as hell. The NASCAR guys seem to be able to produce north of 800 horsepower out of relatively few cubic inches all naturally aspirated and capable of turning ten grand all day long . What the hell are they doing to achieve this? I know that money is no object, but still most of our efforts pale in comparison. Anybody here work in a Nascar engine shop that can clue us in on what goes into these engines? I really dont wanna hear any Anti Nascar ********. Its irrelevant to the question at hand. .. I'm just curious about those engines.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ duh It's the same story spend enough dough and the H-P #s will arrive. When you get past 650 H-P the $$ per H-P takes a big hike >>>>.
5x, Its easy to say its all about money, but they use the money to buy and develop parts for those engines. I wanna know about the parts.
Everything is hand made out of the best and lightest materials possible ***anium is widely used also keep in mind these motors are freshened up asfter running four five hours. The amount of time that is taken to flow each carb venturi intake runner port and cylinder will make your head spin. I these motors are amazing power machines considering the rules that they work under and the stresses that they endure but there is nothing streetable about them. It is a good idea too look at things like nascar and other forms of racing to get ideas on new technology and the direction that it's headed. things that are way out of our price range now will be common place in ten years.
It's probably most accurate to say that it's the grand total of a lot of things...but if you want something to chew on, consider that for a limited chunk of the rpm band (depending on the track) the volumetric efficiency is something on the order of 118%. There are a lot of things done to improve longevity and reduce internal friction, much of which is only dimly known to the average performance-minded guy. In the final ****ysis Engine Pro's answer is as good as anything. Edit: So far as parts go....Honda-size rod journals....beryllium copper valve seats (which are hazardous to machine)...some fairly exotic ring technology...all of which is filtering down to "regular" racing to a greater or lesser extent.
Big bores, to allow big intake valves, rocker ratios in the 1.8 - 2.1 range to create lots of lift fast, ***anium valves, locks, and retainers, valves are splayed, to open towards the center of the cyl, the latest in port and combustion chamber design, large diameter cam bearings to improve stiffness, etc. Also running pressurized oil spraying on all valve springs to keep them cool. Without the extra cooling, the valves get hot and lose their Temper. Most parts are designed to last one weekend.Then they get tossed.
It's the end of the season, they will have their auctions soon. Go on down and find out, then buy the parts, cents on the dollars.
My brother rides an NHRA Pro Stock drag bike. His engines are only 1300 cc's, but produce in excess of 300 HP. (By theoretical comparison, that ratio would equal 1323 HP from 350 cubic inches.) I've seen the inside of these pro stock engines and I can tell you the horsepower achieved is by means that only apply to a very specific purpose or a very narrow range of operation. Definitely not streetable. Nascar and NHRA have vehicles that are built for different purposes, but I believe the principles to be the same. One is built for brute power with less regard for endurance, while the other is slightly more conservative with more regard for endurance. Still, think about it...in a Nascar, the engine only has to last one race, mostly at full throttle. The only variance that engine sees is during caution periods and coming in and out of the pits. It's designed and built to run at full throttle. EXTREMELY close tolerances. Everything is surgically clean upon ***embly. All components are painstakingly MATCHED for the best performance. Blueprinting and balancing SEVERAL magnitudes higher than for street use. Extensive testing to shave thousands or achieve small HP gains. I know the heads and cams are a big deal. Swirl porting that is tested on big money flow benches to achieve the most efficient burn. Cams that are SO BIG that the block has grooves in it to allow clearance for the "lobes"...which by the way, don't really look like lobes; they're more like triangles on a shaft. Extreme lift. Engines are set up to run for the precise weather conditions during the race. Humidity, temperature and barometric pressure are all accounted for in the tune up for the day, or the hour in the case of NHRA. On board computers record EVERYTHING and adjustments are made to hone in on the "perfect" setup for prevailing conditions. In short, Nascar and NHRA spend lots of time and tons of money to wring every last drop of performance out of engines that are purpose built to do ONE THING well. A street engine sees far more daily abuse through varied driving conditions, weather changes and constantly varying loads than any race engine.
OK, are the blocks aluminum? Heads? Are they personal castings or can someone else purchase them somewhere? Billet cranks I presume? How big are the valves? What are the general rules as far as displacement and carburation? I know this is a lot of questions, but these powerplants seem to be cutting edge.
Chaz, there have been links here to dealers in used Nascar and other racing series parts. I forget the links but the dealers were in NC or SC or something like that.
Sure, you can buy the castings. But it's the custom matching of all the components and critical balancing and clearancing to make everything work together in perfect harmony that makes the big power. But, some of those exotic materials wouldn't last very long on the street. Like someone else said, you can buy used Nascar stuff, but without getting the whole flow matched package, that one component isn't going to do you much good.
I started building race engines in the 70's. At this point in time you couldn't get info from hardly anybody so you had to learn it yourself. Now days you just pick through the aftermarket vendors and spend away!! I build large H-P engines on a daily basis and there are still quite a few tricks but for the most part $$$$$ will buy the Power. One thing that the modern day error has brought us is repeat #s on H-P. I credit this to the CNC capabilities and the m*** production of aftermarket parts. I guess the easiest way to explain it is pick a parts house supplier or pick an engine builder and tell them the H-P you are trying to achieve and they will equate it into dollars for you. Oh and the one other thing money will buy you is reliability as we now see the big H-P engines having multiple birthdays and coming back annually for several freshen-ups >>>>.
$$$... One pro stock drag bike engine, ready to run, costs in the neighborhood of $50,000. That includes all the exotic materials, component matching, bench testing, balancing and big HP, but you still have to care for it and run it properly, or it may only last one round. All the clearances are so tight and everything is pushed so far to the extreme that even a minor failure usually results in catastrophic failure.
This is what I tell my race engine homies. My job is to build the big H-P ---Your job is to listen to me and maintain it !! >>>>.
Well, they start with a clean Ford 144 I6 block and machine the living hell out of it... (Chaz knows what I'm saying.) Like everyone here is saying, it's all a matter of setting things up for a very specific task. Big bux, very talented folks turning wrenches and figuring the math stuff out, and years of failure and success make it happen.
Most of those engines & driveline parts are designed to run the length of a given race, anything more is a bonus. Cutting edge? Yes, I'd say so. I think most teams buy the block & other hard parts like cranks, heads, etc. from the manufacturer whose cars they run (Ford, Dodge, etc.) as blank castings, then build 'em up in their own shops - within NASCAR specs/limits, of course. I think the max engine CID is 358, and they run a Holley/style 4 bbl carb & Jericho 4spd trannies. NASCAR tightened up the rules a few years ago when they prohibited the teams from building "grenade" qualifying engines. Y'know how a light burns brightest just before it blows? Some of those engines were built just on the brink. That & a lot of R&D (all costing big $$$$) makes 'em what they are. And yeah, some of the stuff is for sale. ARCA and some of the lesser series teams buy a lot of old Cup stuff. My brother works at Joe Gibbs Racing, they got stuff for sale from time to time to Joe Racer, sometimes ya just gotta be in the right place at the right time. But some stuff ain't for sale - it gets destroyed & s****ped.
I used to car pool with a guy named Steve Shimp who was a machinist for one of Rousch's teams. His job was to "balance the cylinder heads." He had a special machine for this that would only take .0002" material at a time. He would machine every part in each head as close as he could with contemporary methods, then he would use this machine to make sure every single part on every single head was within .0002" of every other part of it's kind on the other head. Then he would "de-burr" the valve springs (whatever that means) and ship the head off to get finished. Now .0002", that's two ten-thousandsths of an inch, and the head isn't finished yet. Holy ****. Now that's some precision.
you answered your own question, sort of. 10,000 rpm. there it is. make the heads flow and the engine stay together and you're most of the way there. remember that HP is a mathematical calculation of torque and time. most of us don't care or NEED to make an engine that lives at 10k. for the tens of thousands of dollars it takes to make the mill stay together at that rpm, you would be much better of bolting a blower onto an engine that never turns over 6k, and it will live forever without any exotic parts, not to mention still be streetable.
I thought that the Nascar engines were built by one or two companies that leased them to the different teams. The teams are not allowed to dis***emble them but Nascar officials can tear them down for inspection then return them to the builder.
Which series ??? In the top 3 series, you can build your own motors, and do whatever you want within the rules. I'd like to see one company build motors for Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, and Toyota.
they aren't yet.. but i bet that soon they will be.. ALL UNDER THE GUISE of safety and "fairness" I feel that nascar is crooked.. The current "race car of the future was designed to make money.. nothing else" to me.. the "cheating" that went on prior to the new rules was what was most exciting.. as far as streetability..well..um..yes and NO.. this O.T. machine belongs to a friend. the engine installation and ***ociated work was handled by my father.. it runs this engine.. startup is interesting.. as the sump needs primed so that oil can circulate through the heater and come up to temp.... a unique process is employed to accomplish this task.. its LESS trouble than firing a stanley steamer.. but alot more exciting.. (some of the pump connections are seen here) preheating the oil is important too.. theres a process to do this, but I cannot elaborate on it.. when its running you know its more than your typical small block..
The basics. 1) Make sure it will hold together for 600 miles at 9000+ rpm. 2) Then make it flow lots of air, larger smoother ports, computational fluid dynamic studies, digitization and CNC copying to duplicate the best flowing ports. 3) Make sure the fuel/air ratio and timing are right and reliable. 4) Minimize friction where you can 5) Ensure adequate cooling It's not rocket science -- well, the computational fluid-dynamics part probably is -- but most of it is being respectful of the basics and having the money to spend on high-rpm reliability.
Late model ('04 GMC) trailer puller question AND Re: Let the beating begin OFF TOPIC.............BULL-**** Do a search jeez MAN, OR go to a NASCAR board, I work all day and want to relax a little (check what time it is) and read about some traditional Hot rods and tech and all i see is **** like the above topics, Where is all the *** chewing that used to happening when something like this **** used to come up? Is the HAMB becoming just like the rest of America ,and just excepting this **** , Where are the MODs when ya need one? Chew my *** if ya want to ,IM going to bed......................
Well this has went plumb to ****. Here we are on the traditional hot rod board and we are talking about a 1968 Camaro with a Carl Wenger modern error high *** dollar race engine in it. My original post was about Money duh!! And back in the day you used to have to think your way into the winners circle and spend a small amount of dough. I would like to say knowledge was KING !! Oh buy the way did you get your answer yet ??? >>>>.
?? I'm confused as to why this is ******* you off so much. Chaz isn't getting chewed out because he's a prominent Hamber and he's building a belly tank to take to Bonniville. I can only ***ume these questions are related to racing. I dunno. I was curious too.
NASCAR , IMHO, was a better sport back when they ran "stock" cars outta Detroit. I think in the early days there was a rule that the carmakers had to make at least 500 production models for sale to the public in order to run 'em in NASCAR. (wasn't the supercharged '57 Ford an example?) The sport is less innovative now due to constant rule changes. It's been homogenized to the point it leaves little to the "imagination" of the teams. Junior Johnson (didn't he say 'it ain't cheatin' unless ya git caught'?) would have trouble with the rules these days! And Smoky Yunick and Hollman & Moody from their glory days!? Yeah this thread may be a bit OT but if anyone remembers early NASCAR they'll remember the racecars were being prep'd for racing by the guys with little "official" help from the OEMs (yeah,right!). Guys like Yunick, H&M, Jr Johnson and many others R&D'd lots of stuff that eventually made its way to the street on hotrods & souped up rides, BITD. NASCAR should go back to it's original rules & let the teams "run what they brung" with only intervention being basic driveline and safety rules. Drivers are part of the team, there still needs to be a few "Smokey's" in the shop to support 'em. But I'd hate to see one builder for all engines, trannies, bodies, etc. I think that was tried once before - it was called IROC- aka BORING! - that'd be same at telling all the rod/custom builders they gotta run crate SBCs with T5s & gl*** deuce bodies! just my 2+cents worth . . .
Used cup stuff's not hard to come by if that's your idea. There's an auction in little 'ole Des Moines very December that will have pallet after pallet of engine parts. Keep in mind that they're odd bore, stroke, rod length combinations. RA Benson Motorsports in Galesburg Il used to have a lot of cup stuff around. Don't know if they still do. I have seen complete motors sell, normally from a lower dollar Busch team. In the 90s guys were sticking cup motors in their dirt late models around here. The rules have diverged enough that that's no longer done. Still see some SB-2s in modifieds.
Back in the day, if any of you remember Nascar driver Jimmy Means, his shop was right next door to my dads shop. I have been in there numerous times. Watched them dyno test engines, and even putting the cars together. But when it came to the engines, I never got to see what they did to them. Very secretive. And in a 'clean' room. Mott
What I have seen - The blocks are (CGI) Compacted Graphite Iron. The (CGI) blocks require different tooling for machining operations. The block also had the cam location raised and different lifter bore configuration. The heads are Aluminum and have a different bolt pattern than your average sbc. I dont remember the valve stem size 7mm, 6mm or 5mm its been awhile. The cranks I have seen are Bryant and the mains journals size 2.020 and the rod journal was BMW size which is smaller than honda 1.880. Also I'm talking about the R07 not the SB2 or the old 18degree ********. What do you want to build?? -E.C.
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