FE Waterpump dates

I need to replace the waterpump on my '64 390 (It's in a mostly stock, no AC Thunderbird). I see some for sale that are 65 and later, and some that claim to be universal. There are some available through T-bird resto sources thate are 64 and older, but I can't tell if that's for function or 'correct-ness.' Naturally those are far more $$$. Thoughts? Feelings?

 

I think the 65 and later have either an extra threaded boss or a pin on them that an alternator bolt or bracket attaches.The pre 64 generator types did not need this.But I have a later pump on mine with a generator and it works fine.

 

The only difference should be a stud or a threaded hole where the yellow is in this pic.

 

Differences can be in the outlet neck angle/length and the length of the pump shaft. I have been wanting to compile differences in FE pumps in order to answer these questions for Vintage Thunderbird Club Int'l. but so far have only worked my way through '58-'63. Provided your pump isn't an aftermarket replacement and is a Ford-cast housing, what are the casting numbers on it, distance from face of shaft flange to face of inlet flanges of pump, and length of pump outlet neck?

 

Just the difference in the stud or not in the parts book.

 

I love this kind of detective work. I took some time to study the '60-'64 "Blue Bible" (printed in 1969) along with some other period catalogs in part to trace the lineage of water pump applications and casting numbers. To clarify the following, the casting number is what you'll find on the face of the pump; the part numbers listed are what you would find in the parts catalogs. Ford used a different number for the casting (also known as an engineering number) from what they listed in the catalogs.

If your pump has a casting number of C4SE 8501-A (which I may still have one of in my pile of pumps needing rebuilding) it crosses with p/n C4AZ 8501-A in the catalogs. It should not have a mounting dowel as the 'Bird used an alternator. This pump was merged with p/n C4AZ 8501-B, which has a casting number of C4AE 8501-C (this is the pump listed in the '60-'64 "Blue Bible" with a mounting dowel). The C4AZ 8501-B pump is listed as '61-'64 with a generator. T-bird used a generator in '61-'62, but not '63 and '64. I suspect the person typing up the listing merged it with the full-size applications, i.e. Galaxie/Monterey, as they used generators through '64. C4AZ 8501-B was preceded by C4AZ 8501-A.

Engine ***embly diagrams for '64 show a dowel on the p***enger side of the pump inboard and above the threaded bolt hole for the generator bracket upper arm, which is in the lower front of the p***enger side pump to block neck. If you're using the original upper alternator mounting bracket for the 'Bird the dowel should not be a problem as it is clear from the bracket. This would explain why the part numbers were merged by 1969 in order to reduce the number of parts stocked.

The pump with threaded hole listed in the '60-'64 "Blue Bible" (printed in 1969) is shown as C5AZ 8501-U. This part number was issued after mid-1967 as I do not show it in the April '66 Master Cross Reference Catalog or the July '67 Obsolete-Supercede-Interchange Catalog. (C5AZ 8501-U does show up in the October '70 Master Cross Reference Catalog and should have a casting number C8TE 8501-K). Applications listed include '63-'64 and '65-'67 T-birds. C5AZ 8501-U was also used on '63-'64 full-size Fords with an alternator, '65-'67 full-size Fords with 352-390-427-428 (except Police Interceptor engines), '67 Fairlanes with a 390, and '68 full-size Fords with the 390. By extension the C8TE 8501-K would indicate application from a '68 Ford truck, i.e. pick-up, with a FE engine.

C5AZ 8501-U's lineage was started with C5AZ 8501-C in the fall of 1964, and was replaced over the yeas by C5AZ 8501-G, C5AZ 8501-M, C5AZ 8501-R, C5AZ 8501-U, C5AZ 8501-V, then merged with D0AZ 8501-A and D0AZ 8501-D, and finally replaced with D4TZ 8501-H ('74 truck engine).

The shaft is a different length for earlier pumps, i.e. '58-'60, but it would be nice for future reference to know that those lengths are. As you can see from above, Ford's constant "refining" of design can lead to a bunch of numbers that may hide some interesting differences. Long story short you should be able to use either style of pump, but as I noted earlier compare the configuration of the outlet necks as one may point down at a sharper angle than the other in order to clear the power steering pump.

 

I wonder if they changed the size of the byp*** hose? This Edelbrock intake, made for the earlier engine, has a larger byp*** hose ****** than the 66 water pump. You can barely see it here but there is a big difference in the two sizes. I can work it out but if Harry Homeowner was replacing his water pump, he'd take it back for having the wrong size hose ******.

 

The first generation of pumps/intake manifolds for the FE, i.e. 1958-1959 (and possibly early 1960) were set up with a small pipe ****** at the pump and a larger ****** at the manifold. To connect the two a hose was made with small ID on one end and larger ID on the other. By 1960 or 1961 this changed to a single, consistent diameter for both the pump and intake. The fitting screwed into the manifold for the first-generation FEs also had the water temperature sender in it, while later ones had the temp fitting in the top of the manifold between the surge tank/thermostat housing and the carb.

 

Thanks for the info. This is it by the way.