HOW TO JUDGE A WELD, One thousand words can tell you more than one picture.

HOW TO JUDGE A WELD, One thousand words can tell you more than one picture. I have the words, with no pictures.

The first thing I learned in writing, if you don’t grab the attention of the target audience, nobody will ever read what you have to say.

So consider yourself grabbed!

Literally HUNDREDS of times on the HAMB, within the last six months, people have been responding to threads, commenting on the quality of a weld, judging the integrity of the weld, when they have not a clue about what makes a good weld. This contribution is not on how to judge a good weld. It is to point out that a lot of people have been misled on how to do that. Yes, they believe what somebody has told them. Too bad.

Enter just one guy I know. He is a personal friend. His affirmation that he knows, without question that he can tell a good build from it’s appearance. No, not just the paint, but underneath, from the “quality” of workmanship“ that he sees. Sadly, personal friendship notwithstanding, he is ate up with the dumbass! Along those lines, lest I bore you, I will only use one more example. He also says that he can tell by the looks of a mechanics tool box, how clean and neat it is, how efficiently they are arranged, gives him insight into the quality of work to expect from that mechanic. Wrong! Again.

Did I say something about judging a weld? Oh, yes, I got diverted. (not really, it was a ploy to get your attention. As Ryan might say, bordering on ‘talking shit’.

First I will lay out an outline of what I can do, and how I got to where I am today. I’m 71 years old. I started welding when I was about 19. I’m a certificated Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic, (by FAA, yes they say cert-tif-I-cated, instead of certified, just government shit talk), along with having expanded those certificates to include Inspection Authorization, (IA) and being an Aircraft mechanic Examiner. The AI is the guy that releases major repairs to service, like welds. The Examiner is the guy that administers the test and certifies applicants to become Certificated Airframe and/or Powerplant Mechanics. I got my first license in 1968, exercised them for a long time, am now retired. If I were to go to work for a living tomorrow, I’d work on something besides airplanes, the money is better. Just threw that shit in there so maybe you will be inclined to believe what I’m talking about. Might not, Don’t matter.

Along the way I have done some welding. I have taught people how to weld. I have inspected welds. Given that, you welders know, already!, that that ain’t worth any more than the price of one hill of beans, because talking a good weld, looking a good weld, judging a good weld, none of that has nothing to do with experience. It’s pure skill. Period.

I can lay a pretty good looking weld on 3/16 inch plate, or if you prefer, ½ inch plate, with a wire-feed welder that looks good, but is SHIT when it comes to strength. With a TIG I can even do better (at faking a good weld), (worse as far as strength goes)! I can draw you a picture of a magnificent weld, on the surface of 1/16 inch plate, or for that matter the same weld (in appearance) on ½ inch plate. Kind of like painting a masterpiece. That’s where the dichotomy comes in. People look at TIG welds and immediately assume because they look nicer they are better. Has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. Believe it.

To give you an example, just last summer a guy that had gone through a extensive welding training at a big air conditioning company that builds chassis for rooftop mounted AC units came to me. He was complaining that he had got some bad rod. He was welding up a frame on his hotrod project. He asked me to take a look. Walking up to the frame, I was impressed by the uniformity of the welds. They all looked good, but I wasn’t looking close, I was looking at the particular weld where he claimed he had gotten ‘some bad rod’. Sure enough, the weld had cracked right down the middle of the bead. Kind of a zig, zag, crack, you know like cracks do. I got a mirror and looked inside the web of the frame, under where the weld was. What had happened, the weld was so thin (no penetration) that when the frame contracted with cooling off, it had broke the weld.

Visualize a butt weld. If the weld has good penetration, the back side of the joint will have fill rod seeping through, a more perfect weld will have fusion all the way through, with definite discoloration of the parent metal out about 1/8 of an inch. This is one, but not always, an indication of good penetration.

I talked to him about that. I was somewhat taken aback that he didn’t really understand what I was talking about. He had been trained in a welding class. His instructor had passed his welds. He thought he was doing it correctly. He had passed the course. When I asked him about his destructive tests, where you bend the metal in a vise to see if the weld breaks, he didn’t remember that being done. He was, still is, working at that plant, turning out AC unit support frames. The good news is the welds he is doing for them must work ok, maybe because of the application.

I’m sure you are waiting for my point. I will be short and sweet. I am reminded of another thread, just in the past few days where a autopsy of an old hotrod was performed by a shop, hired to evaluate and re-do a recent purchase by the owner of the car. The car was a joke, if appearance of the welds was the benchmark. The welds were crappy (looking).

As I looked at the car I was reminded of a dirt-track racecar built by a nimrod, driven for umpteen years, then the old deuce or (whatever) body was taken off and sold because they are worth their weight in gold, another body was thrown on and painted and it was sold as a ‘traditional’ hotrod. Never mind that the thing probably has duelled it out on the track and maybe won some races, all of those welds holding up, but here on the HAMB many people, ignorant of what the diff is between a ‘quality’ weld with good penetration and a ‘crappy’ looking weld is chimed in with a lot of dismay. Hang the bastard up by his balls.

Again, get the thrust of my thread. It’s directed at people that have never welded, just riding along for the ride, but have the gall to believe they are qualified to judge a weld.

Beauty can be only skin deep.

Beauty can also be deeper than skin deep.

Beauty is beauty, but has absolutely, positively, without a doubt, any place where the quality of a weld is to be judged.

Nowhere in the MILSPEC of inspecting a weld does it say, “ it’s bad if it doesn’t look good”. X-ray tests and Ultrasonic tests look for voids, lack of fusion, etc. If there was a visual test of the quality of a weld, that would give an indication of that quality, then x-rays, ultrasonic tests, magnaflux tests, even the old standby dye penetrant tests would have no value.

Do you think that if a good weld could be judged visually, by some expert, that the oil pipelines, the nuclear power plant builders, etc. would go to such lengths as to use scientific based tests? The AMERICAN SOCIETY OF NONDESTRUCTIVE TESTING, (ASNT), of which I am a member, would love to hear about that guy! He would, literally speaking, be worth his weight in gold!

So, lest I go on for another ‘thousand, I’ll sum it up. All of the self appointed experts on “look”, I appreciate. I have my own ‘look’ values. At my age, if I were to submit a weld for judging I just wouldn’t. If I were asked to submit to a NDT strength test, I would have no problem.

But we see it here on HAMB a lot, where ‘look’ is misrepresented as ‘quality’.

Mechanically sound machinery can be ugly. Deal with it. Some go to great lengths to change that. Good for them. But, grinding off an ugly weld to make it look good removes strength. There are times for it. I will attest that the only person qualified to grind it is the person that welded it. The welder knows the quality, the penetration, below the surface. Personally, when I see welds ground off for ‘look’ I shudder. What’s the point? It’s a weld!

Mechanical sound machinery can be beautiful. Love it. Shape, stance, symmetry, contrast, look, likes, dislikes, are all part of that. Mechanical sound machinery can be beautiful or ugly, depending on the judge, but the judge of mechanically sound machinery cannot base his judgment on the ‘look’ when the quality is beneath the surface, as with a weld.

With a weld, beauty is only skin deep.
.

 

Good read. Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

Penetration is great in welding and perpetuates life. Filler material is also suggested for both.
Words of wisdom are better than a smart ass remark too. Thank you 29Nash.

 

So how do I judge a weld?

 

Thanks for sharing your wisdom

 

get a job at an NDT company. work there for a couple years and slowly but surely work your way up to a shearwave cert, then you can inspect welds with more sensitivity than xray. or you could become a radiographer after being an assistant for 18 months in an xray truck doin bitch work. and passing all the tests.

 

i took a class in non destructive testing last year for my M.E. degree, and we tested alot of welds, and such using ultrasound, that stuff is pretty neat, theres alot you cant see under the surface as far as defects or discontinuties, thanks for the post

 

great read ,i have been tinkering with welding with the tig over the last few years, little and not to often , i can't do the perfect coins overlaying one after the other and i do regard my welds to be a bit ugly but hopefully the strength has been there . write some more even if it is just two of us reading it.............................

 

i've seen some gorilla ass weld pass, and some pretty ass welds fail. welders will pretty much tell you if their shits gonna fail, the say, over here.. i had some trouble but this spot right here is good. you dont even need to worry about this spot...
that dont worry about this spot... iits gonna fail 90% of the time.

 

I worked for over 30 years in Gas Transmission & Distribution & do atest to the NDT and destructive testing mode of weld evaluation. Welding is quality with what Nash32 said but I'd have to add that cleaning before (chamfering)& grinding out slag between passes eliminates inclusions and improves penetration. Welding over paint or rust bothers me just a little!!!!! LOL.

29Nash's statement about covering up an insufficiently penetrated Mig weld is my current weakness and goal to overcome. All of my structural welds are still Arc-stick because that's where I passed my testing and trust the most. Before I bought my Mig welder (10 years ago) I used thin dragrod for use in chopping Model A bodies.

As well, verticle down's & overhead welds might not look as good but still weld quality is not a Picture --- unless it's from an X-ray.

Thanks 29Nash for your insight.

Movin/on

 

just a short one.
on a car programme i think it was monster garage when a dude made a fuel tank and said he did not need to leek test it as his welding was that good and when they filled it up with fuel , leaked like a sieve ..................................

 

You're 71?

 

I've been working with some ship-welders for the past couple months,
and have learned alot about strength vs looks.

We did this one job,
and since most of my stuff was lighter hot rod welding not 1/4+" plate,
just followed the other guys lead in both flux and arc welding.

Definitely found out that looks are second to penetration.
(except for bubble holes pinholes of course)

I learned to like the flowing lava look equal or more to the stacked dimed look in some instances,
usually these have more filler and more levelized heat,
and on a boat it is easier to ensure its waterproof.

Also like you said about the circle track car,
some jobs are done in a rush, at night, emergency fix, hard to reach, unreasonable deadline...
While the best attempt is made to make it pretty, strength is the most important.
Of course these are the welds that last forever!

Sometimes guys get way to picky about welds,
especially on stuff that will be covered in grease and road-dirt!


TP

 

Bravo!

 

......actually 71.75 and 3.5 days.

 

Great post, thanks for putting it out there. Doesn't mean that some of the pretty welds we see are here are not good. And maybe some of the Glee welds are OK. For me, I just want it to be strong.

Question: I suppose that you can have an ugly weld that is so unquestionably bad, that there is no way that it can not be bad. Some of the welds on that other thread you mentioned would seem to be in that category.

 

Ha!

 

In the red dot II video, I like the dust devil in the background at 1:02 thru 1:14. bitchin' cars too..............

I use Green Dot in .45 long colt hanloads..........
.

 

I can appreciate that. My mentor, Burl (Youngs Welding Shop on W. Prince Road) is an ace with the stick welder, been in business since 1950, still there. Stop and talk to him if ever in Tucson AZ, a couple of blocks west of N. Speedway(edit) Not Speedway, North Oracle RD., open air shop. He'll talk your ear off about shooting whitewing, winning at ponies, winning at trap/skeet, hunting whitetail deer, etc.

 

I agree. my point has always been function over form, but with prep and planning, You can easily have both.

 

wow...!i have a totally different respect for you now! i hope to make it that long,much less still be building hotrods at that age!

my great grandfather(r.i.p) had a welding shop since the mid 30's(still in buisness today,but with different owners,my grandfather(r.i.p) was a welder (responsible for about 75% of the wrought iron still on houses in barren county,ky) my dad was also a welder too ..he's who i picked it up from,,he never really trained me,,but much rather i just used to watch what he did,,then when he was at work i would weld up my own stuff....

..........i do not claim to be an expert or anything,,i can lay nice welds down when i feel like it..alot times i dont really care how they look though,,just as long as the are strong,.,,,i have NEVER had a weld brake though...

 

Thanks Samf

I can't weld as good as I used to, puddle gets funny sometimes, glasses smoke up, that's my excuse. Ha.

Well, nice to hear the kind words. Funny, I don't feel THAT old.

I bent and installed new tin around the top of the Nash this month then spotwelded it with fluxcore wirefeed, and ground it smooth.

It's not a roadster, too pricy for me, but open and fun, with tonneau for bad weather.

But, regarding my age, I did put a HEATER in the Nash this week. to warm my bones, it's cold this time of year, drove it today with the heater on and it's surprising how much it helps even without windows.


My respects to those that made you a fourth generation.
.

 

You are right of course. That is one piece of shit car. I almost fell off my chair laughing.

I can imagine somebody commiting sideways if it got out that they did that car. LOL!

 

Well, you have me beat by 4 years. First I am not an expert at welding. I owned a sign company in the sixties and seventies and welded metal trailers for trailer signs and aluminum extrusion for sign cases. Had welding contests with employees just for kicks. Never had a weld tested.
Now that you know that I don't know what I am talking about, I will say this. I think welding is a perfect storm when everything is right it will produce a good, strong and beautiful weld. I agree, I never would grind a weld, unless bodywork sheet metal. A good looking and strong weld is beautiful enough. Will grind off splatter, especially with MIG.
I laugh when others say stick is outdated. With proper penetration, stick will produce fines welds and the machine is affordable for most heavier metal applications.
I also don't agree with the laying of dimes, with heat on, heat off, play with the pedal. I welded TIG for years and never used a foot pedal or pulse. Just correct heat and run the bead.
As with most posts, there will be different opinions, but let me say it is great when you can come on with years of experience and let it be known what is fact and what is show.
Make sure that it is understood that the welds by Sellers and Welder Series are works of art and the talent required is acknowledged. Pride and craftmanship should always be recognized.

 

Certainly.

Craftmanship and the pride that goes with it is human. Pride on oneself is priceless. Craftsmen understand that.

To judge with no knowledge of the criteria is human also, but forgiveable.

I hope you are as happy with your years as I am with mine. I would'nt trade a minute.

 

29Nash thats a great read. I was taught by my Dad and the first thing he said is make sure it's strong. When I'm doing alot of welding and get back in the groove I can make em look pretty good but thats not my priority. I am as somebody said on here somewhat of a Gorrilla welder. ( I enjoyed that reference because thats what pop's called it). I still use stick/ARC as well on most all chassis work because I KNOW I can do a good, safe job. I have never had a weld come loose either( Knock on wood). Thanks for the insite.

 

Amen to that, not one minute. The problem is that it seems life has kicked into 5 gear overdrive.

 

So shouldn't the title be How not to judge a weld?

 

thanks man!

i know they (R.I.P) would be realy proud for the compliment.(even though I do not deserve it.),,



on a side note,,,i hope you didnt take my age commet as disrespect,..but rather as respect...i work with a good man who is 73,he refuses to retire and he can give me run for the money any time when we are in the wherehouse working...he trips me out,,,he goes out to the local sports bar every tues day and friday. has a couple beers, and is at almost every WKU (local college) game and Titans home game,,,i listen to him all the time when he has some kind of knowlege to share.....i am still trying to find out his secret.!!

 

I hope you are as happy with your years as I am with mine. I would'nt trade a minute.[/quote]

That's a statement from a man who has always tried to do his best. When his best wasn't good enough he found someone who could and learned from the experience.
I'm also of that opinion and wouldn't trade a second let alone a minute. I've spent a few years in the hospital because of someone's incompetence so being able to look myself in the mirror and sleep well at night is something I treasure.
Thanks for your contribution, the idea is applicable to other things besides welding.

Frank