Suspension Guru's, please help.

I bought this Model A project from E-bay several months ago. I have since removed the motor, tran.'s and body. I have spent time researching old threads trying to find some insight to my suspension problems.
The original rear set-up caused binding and has since been removed. I have included pictures of the current state of the frame/ suspension for your review. Please provide any input in regard to proper rear set-up options (4 link, shock location, etc) Pictures include frame verses suspension location (Distance between axle and frame is currently 14" in location that the suspension would attach to rear frame kick up.)
Please provide any and all feedback / recommendations that would get me going in the right direction

THANKS IN ADVANCE!

 

I would put the spring behind the diff and use a 4 bar and panhard rod set up.
That would allow you to shorten the Zed which looks way to over done.
The ride height lloks like it needs to be raised since it is not really the ride height as it does not seem to take into account any added body and engine weight etc.

Take a tour of some earlier build threads posted by say "Stripper" for starters an see if you can take some inspiration and then post some more questions.
I know there were some chassis posts on T coupe projects so that would be another search point.

Good luck and merry xmas.

 

I would start over and build a new frame. From what I can see that frame dont look strong enough. Do you have pix of the car before you started to take it apart. Looks like the bottom of the body would be to close to the ground. I would rebuild it using a Pete&Jakes latter bar style rear with and different spring

thats just my opinion

 

That was the direction I was going, to use a 4 link and panhard bar setup but with only 14" from the frame to the axle I wasn't sure if the 4 link set up would work. Why would you put the spring behind the axle instead of over top as they currently are?

 

To allow less kickup in the frame, as he said.
But, that frame has some SERIOUS issues of strength. The right angles are ready to break, just add a small-ish bump, and it's flatbed time. Not to mention that 2 x 3 box is not really enough for a fibreglass 'T', much less an 'A'.
Get a real 'A' frame, or enough 2 x 4 box to make a good 'un.
Cosmo

 

Here are some pictures before I started. The geometry around the rear suspension was all wrong, the rearend had no spring, it was totally locked up.

 

The frame is a little deceiving, it is 3" structural "c" channel that has been boxed. I do agree that the right angles need to be gusseted.

 

The reason for putting the spring behind the axle helps lower the rear end without requiruing such a big Zed which looks to be be very weak due to it height and the higher the zed is the more leverage it has on it which requires extra strength.
Some guys are Zed happy and seem to think the higher the Zed they make the greater there manhood or something.
By using my suggestion you could save about 3 inches in zed height, plus a few extra inches by raising the road clearance height and then the zed rise is looking a little more respectible.

Great start by asking questions you will be on track in no time.

 

I will send you some pictures that may help.

 

That looks like a Model T rear spring which should be mounted to perches with the spring shackle eyes 48 inches apart center to center.
A Model A spring mounts to perches 49 1/2" eye to eye center to center.
1909-41 Ford front and rear springs must be mounted under tension and spread to install the shackles.

Your picture of the suspension as previously mounted shows the perches too close together as the spring shackles should be horizontal to the floor when mounted without the weight of the full car on them. AND, I would remove the spring and see if that frame will drop at all with those shocks mounted the way they are. That looks like your bind combined with the spring eyes bottoming out on the perch towers.

 

The shocks were in a bind, in fact the shocks had creases in the upper covers where they hit the frame at the top mount. The original perches were too close together and the springs bottomed out against the perches when the body weight was added to the frame. I have cut all the mounts from the axle and ready to start over. With the purchases cut from the axle I lowered the springs onto the axle and measured the spring shackle eyes and they were spread to 48". Thanks for the 49 1/2" dimension for the perches center to center.

 

This was very bad it would have failed for sure .If it was mine I would use a four bar set up independent of each other .And put in a watts link or a pan hard bar .Good luck

 

I think your over your head with a project like this.. when there are deals like this laying around....better frame better project from the start. Good luck happy holidays.

Bird



http://www.smallblockposse.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000922#000000

 

Have someone inspect all welds b4 going further

 

If I remember correctly "gnichols" did a whole thread on different suspension stuff for hot rods and I am sure when he is free, he will post his opinion and links to his thread and more.

Here is a starter;
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=303648&highlight=pickup+project

 

You said you bought a project!

The ladder bars that were on it are way to short and as the rearend goes up and down it moves front to back a lot and binds everything up. The ladder bars need to be a lot longer with the front pivot mounted further forward on the frame. This minimizes the arc that the rearend swings through as it goes up and down.

The right angle corners on the frame need to be braced. the botton corner on your frame looks only about 2" across at one point about ready to snap off. The way those ladder bars were mounted to the upright portion of your frame all the forces of the rearend were transfered to that very weak point at the bottom of the frame. Scary.

The shocks also need to be mounted more upright. Layed over on a 45 degree angle like that they are only half as effective as they would be as if they were strait up and down.

I took your pic and drew in some longer ladder bars and some braces to the frame so you can see what I'm talking about. I'd like to see some pics of the front suspension to see if it looks anything as bad as the rear. Boxed channel iron wouldn't have been my first choice for frame material either. Just judging by what you have posted here you may need to take a step back and look at this whole project you might need to think about a whole new frame.

 

The arse end of the frame is all wrong, its no suprise it was binding up. I wrote a big long post on what you should do to fix it but without pictures it just sounded like a rant so i deleted it. Just do a hamb search and you'll find more than enough info on the right way to build a frame.
which in your case may mean starting again.

 

Nice work, Docco and Qmotox, great help for this guy, he needs that kind of direction to be safe and technically correct.
His chassis etc is just so wrong I dont know where to start to correct him, he needs to do a lot of homework on our search facility and then come back with some questions and proposals.

 

I really appreciate everyone's constructive suggestions. The frame definitely needs some work and will be braced. As originally built the force transmitted to the frame from the rear end would have stressed and broke the first 90 degree joint on the frame. I will be reinforcing this joint with diagonal and overlapping gussets. I do not have room to put extended ladder bars along the frame, so I am considering using a 4 link setup and panhard bar. I plan on dropping the 4 link connection point to bottom of the frame transferring the forces in a straight line into the frame and reducing the forces on the first 90 degree offset of the frame.

Qmotox you ask to see the front suspension so here are some pictures. I do have some concerns here as well but I was focusing on one section at a time.

Merry Christmas everyone.

 

I added this to another thread. Go read this and buy the book, please.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/?p=3485


And after seeing both ends of the car I would toss most all of the "fab" work that was done and start over. Way too many issues there.

 

Yep, Tman is spot-on. You will be able to get the stance and ride your looking for, it can be a steep learning curve at times, but well worth the time and questions, allow the work to proceed as the $$$ allow.

 

i'm with both these guys. Unfortunately, the frame you have now is better off in the recycle pile. Too much work and money to repair a really poorly thought out and dangerous basis for your street rod. Better to accept defeat now and move on to the challenge of a safe and dependable piece that you are proud of.

 

And dont feel bad if you scrap the frame. I built a perfectly working frame for my T then decided I wanted something more like a 32 profile and started over. Keep that old 2x3, you can use it for a rotisserie, fab table,hoist, bracing etc.

 

I really do appreciate the diversity of opinions I am receiving from the posts. I know this frame has a lot of issues that need addressing as several have stated, and several agree that it would be better in the scrap pile. I have access to a full machine shop so making parts and modifications is not a problem. When someone states that it has too many issues that really doesn't help me in deciding if I should just start over, but specific concerns about the frame would help me decide if I can modify it or be better off starting anew. I am not afraid of work, so let me have it.

 

I understand, if I do scrap it, it won't go to waste. I don't throw anything away, you never know when you might need it. I didn't build this frame, so there is no pride involved there. The only pride that may be involved is in admitting defeat, not being able to make "lemonade from a bag of lemons".

 

start with what the frame is made from.

C channel then it was boxed = way to much weight.

dont need to go beyond that for me to want to replace the frame.

 

I am not a Guru ,but i did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. No really ,I agree that it would be less work and probably turn out nicer if you just started over. IN MY OPINION, if the design and thought are from the same guy that did the welding I would grind ,blast or something and take the whole frame to bare metal.NO decent welder would make something that flawed of design. It maybe crap welded with bondo to make it look good. I know you don't want to hear this again ,but start over from scratch.

 

Tman, I just bought the book from Amazon.com. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

One more time...Start over. There are guys on the HAMB that build awesome frames for a good price. Here is one from Riley Auto. Has a great base to start from. Join the HAMB alliance, support the site and get great discounts on parts and service.

 

I'll write a little more when I get home from xmas activitys. Do a search on ackerman angle and triangleated 4 link.