Wiring issue, external solenoid

I know, another wire thread. Yucco.

Ez Wire Kit. It seems every time I wire a car, this is a problem then it heals itself. (on three different panels systems in three different cars)

I have juice to the key (ignition) on all terminals. When I turn it to start, nothing happens. I have a external solenoid, hot from battery on one post, with a hot wire for the panel. On the other post is the larger battery cable to the starter. I have the wire from the key ignition switch to the the S side(nearest the hot lead) and the wire to the starter to activate on the I side.

I can jump the starter directly from the battery ok. I have voltage at the coil.

I even tried direct battery connected to the starter, and a straight wire from the key iginition to the starter, nothing.

I think it may be the key iginition, but not sure.

I have a French Flathead, MSD Coil and MSD Dist. I have yet to check for spark, as right now thats the easy part.

Any suggestions. I cant imagine its a grounding issue but...

 

Have you got a ground from the soleniod bracket to frame earth?
Have you tested the soleniod out of the car?

 

http://www.ehow.com/how_2300525_mount-car-starter-solenoid.html
.

 

what solenoid are you using? i believe the early Ford's that had the separate start ****on (like a `40 Ford ) that the ****on actually grounded the solenoid to activate it

 

Like fly said I think you need to bench test the solenoid, making sure you have continuity through the solenoid when energized.If this is good take another look at your ignition switch setup. Also make sure you don't have the signal wire to the solenoid wired onto a circuit that cuts out while the start position of the switch is on.

 

Just to make sure I understand, did you jump power from the battery side of the solenoid to the relay (S) to see if that worked. Should kick it over, but iIf that doesnt work, I would check to see if you have a good ground with an ohm meter. If you have a good ground and jumping it does not work - sounds like the solenoid is bad.

If the solenoid does work, I would test the voltage coming from the switch at the (S) on the solenoid. Keep the wire hooked up to the (S) and turn the key (may take two people), see if you loose voltage at the solenoid when the key is put in the start position. You may get an initial reading, but then it may go low or completely dead. If so - your switch is bad, which seems to be pretty common around here with these after market switches. If no reading at all - switch (as long as it has confirmed power).

 

Its a new 4 post external. If I used a jumper wire to touch the post thats to send the juice to the starter, it does crank. Imagine a new solenoid not working, that never happens with anything right? the actual Key ignition part is mounted on a plate which is bolted to the lip under the dash (steel dash) which is grounded to the frame. I have good voltage on the key ignition, even on the Starter post, hard to measure without two hands.

The starter is one of those new space saver types, with one connection for the hot lead from the battery and one plug in wire for the ignition from the key.

I thought about an additional ground, but seem to be getting voltage everywhere else.

 

you may be getting voltage, but if you dont have a ground to your soleniod it wont work, it itself is a switch. just put a wire from the solenid bracket (under the fstening bolt) to your ch***is ground, see if that works.

 

Cant hurt, grounding is important and at times works in mysterious ways.

 

Is there a neutral safety switch circuit in the harness? I have had that prob;em in the past. Just shorted it together to complete teh cicuit.


jerry

 

Sounds like you have two solenoids. One on the fender or firewall, the newer 4 post style ford. And another on the starter itself. Why?

Those gear reduction starters or space saver style as you said you have, don't suffer from the heat soak hard starting condition that the older ones used to. Ford needed the external solenoid cause the early style starters didn't have the solenoid on the starter body.
Lets look at your system.
Battery cable on one large post of the soleniod and main fuse panel feed on the same.
Small post marked S should have the wire from the ignition switches start terminal and should be hot at the solenoid during cranking (***uming the neutral safety switch is not open if equipped)
Next small post marked I is for the resistor by p*** to the + side of the coil in order to send voltage to the coil during cranking.
Last large post is a cold battery cable to the starters main stud.

Your space saver starter needs the small terminal on it's solenoid jumpered to the main stud that the battery cable coming from the external solenoid is connected to.

OR

Your space saver starter should have a battery cable from the battery + terminal and the fuse panel power feed wire. The small wire should be from the ignition switches start terminal.

Wiring this way would eliminate the external starter solenoid.

Just a thought


Brant

 

Well the why's of using it, making me sound like a idiot here, were shown in the wiring diagram as needed in the system. I am going to try two things today, one being a jumper wire to by p*** the solenoid all together.
Will let you all know how it works.

 

Check for a neutral safety circuit,a lot of the wiring companies put them in.

 

Drop the E-Z Wire panel and look at the crimps on the back. There's probably one or more that are loose or poorly formed.

You get what you pay for, especially with an E-Z Wire kit

 

There are TWO kinds of 4 post external solenoids.

One is the FoMoCo OEM style with an "S" terminal and an "R" or "I" terminal. The "S" terminal connects to the START terminal of your ignition switch via the neutral safety switch, if you're using one. The other terminal goes to the coil side of the ballast resistor to provide full battery voltage to the coil during starting. Once the key is switched back to RUN, this terminal is dead at the solenoid (but will measure some voltage as it is tied to the low side of the ballast resistor)

The OTHER type of 4 post solenoid is normally used as a continuous duty solenoid (for dual battery systems or to turn on auxilliary functions with a single wire i.e. it's a BIG relay) In any event, ONE small post is tied to ground, the other is tied to switched battery voltage.

Which type of solenoid do you have? The second type WON'T have any letter designations on the two small posts.

 

I think JAWS is onto the problem. Yes you maybe trying to use two solenoids(integral and external). Check your starter and see if the extra little terminal is marked "s". If so, then this would indicate that you have a solenoid on the starter and you would wire as such. Main starter cable goes straight to the starter main lug. The wire which is hot in crank position only would go to your "S" terminal.
Another way of determining the starter design would be just use jumper cables to the starter.....Negative to the main body and positive to the main lug. IF this does not spin the starter over you probably have a built in solenoid.... now jump 12 volts to the little terminal which is probably marked "S" IF the starter kicks over then this confirms that there is an onboard solenoid on the starter. IF this is so DO NOT use the external solenoid.

If you need a non resisted ignition start circuit then you may need to incorporate a relay for that pupose.

 

Tossed out the solenoid, jumper wire to the starter part of the key ignition, engaged starter. End of quest.

Now to get it runnin

Thanks all for the help and guidance pushing me in the direction I thought was right. For some reason when I did the jumper wire last time I didnt get squat.

No real issues with EZ Wires box. When all you need is starter, fan, coil and lights, really not bad.

 

This thread can be closed

 

ford use's the 2 relays. they use the fender mounted relay to take the load off the ign. and get a full battery voltage to the S terminale on the starter. it is very important to get a full 12v to the starter. low voltage kills starters and relays. when your starter clicks and does not start.... its not alwas a bad starter.
you do not need the big realys. you can use the smaller 40 amp "bosch" black relays for your externale. most new cars use them easy to wire up.
PM me if you need any help.

 

Ford uses a second relay to actuate the actual starter solenoid so that they can get away with running extremely small wire and a bunch of interlocks prior to the first solenoid. If they went back to a simple "turn the key and forget about politically correct idiot proof systems", they wouldn't need the extra relay, just a length of 14 gauge wire.