This conversation has been on since 2006. In fact too much conversation and few actual cars. Several guys seem to have real knowledge on this so, while I'm working out a chassis set up, what do you guys think is the optimum in-line and tranny for this class? Cost IS an object, though. Flathead V8's are great but the 6's are WAY cheaper. If you only run 2nd and final, which trannies can take the punishment? Also, does it make any sense to build big HP if we're restricted to 6" tread? Yeah, I'm just talkin' at this stage too, but this class seems to be the coolest opportunity for max fun and modest bucks. I really want to do this.
I can't offer any thoughts to the ultimate engine, we used what we had. I am using the Ford Toploader 3spd thinking it's has the qualitys of it's big brother 4speed.
Actually, your point about the 6" tread is well thought. Much of anything over 200 hp is simply going to be hard to control. Most sixes from the late '50s/early '60s make between 100 & 150 hp in street trim, so it won't take a major investment to have some fun. As long as you race it the way they were raced in the early fifties whatever stock gearbox that comes with the engine will be good, and at 150 hp or so you'll likely still be using first. If you insist on hammering the clutch indiscriminately your gearbox won't last any longer than it would've had it been treated that way in the original car. In addition, somewhat beefier pick-up and van boxes are available for most of those sixes as well. The "slants" are cheap and quite available, often free, (and have some speed equipment around) as the "A" bodies they were in are popular V-8 conversions. They're harder to find a stick for though, as most were 904 equipped. The Fords and Chevys are out there too, and are a bit easier to find sticks in. Just look around and see what pops up. Rather like we did then .....
At this current point in history the ultimate 6 that qualifies to the letter of the law for HA/GR is the one Ron Golden built. I have no idea for trans. I was thinking a really light car with a screamingly hotted up Model B 4 would be cool, but I got too much going on as it is now to even think of starting a project like that.
The cheapest engine in my opinion is the 261 Chevrolet engine. You will have parts available to get more HP from it. The GMC is a great engine but it costs a lot of money to get HP from it. As far as transmissions go Rand man is right on with the Ford 3 speed toploader. It will take the punishment. If you get near 300 hp with these things even with 6 inch tires it will tear up a Saginaw 3 speed. From my own experience I can tell you that you will have the trans and clutch out after every meet with a Saginaw if you make over 300 HP. A Long type clutch with a Ford toploader is the only thing that will survive I believe.Roy
The problem with these old trans, is that they are pretty much worn out when we get them. Have it looked at (inside) by someone that knows what to look for. Manual trans can have too much slop, and a few little shims can make a world of difference. I reccomend getting one out of a full-size car or pick-up truck, no matter what the brand.
Thanks, guys. I was hoping to hear from you - Old6' I'm sure there are many others too, but you seem to have practical experience. I don't want to make this a "dreamer" thread, but others might learn from you guys too. I'll build a more stout (heavier) car than I see on here 'cause I don't want to get hurt, if possible. So I'm leaning towards a 240 Ford because they are lighter - but will they spool-up and live? Or would the Chevy give more torque? (sorry, I'm uninformed on 6's - I'll find some inliner sites soon. The tranny tips are good - the top loader is a truck application? Or what vehicles did they come in?
The modern Top Loader I have is from a Galaxie. Was the 240 available in 1962? I thought not. If it were legal for this class, I would be running one.
The 240 and 300 fords along with the 230,250,292 chevrolets came a year or two too late. The mighty gmc would pale in comparison to any of the above. pete
The 261 Chevy is a derivative of the 235 chevy passenger car engine. The 261 was an attempt by Chevrolet to get a bigger truck engine out of the 235. It has bigger ports and has more cubes. Cubic inches are free HP. The easiest way is to make an engine plate for the back of engine and use it to adapt a SFI approved bellhousing so you can keep your feet in case the clutch or flywheel comes apart. Don't go overboard on the cam for the early sixes because usually big cams mean high rpm. These old sixes only have 4 mains so rpm can be a killer. Make all your HP from 3000 to 5000 rpm. Keep your headers small and long, about 1 5/8 in. and 40 inches long. If you try to copy the modern V-8's you lose low end torque and run out of air before the headers can do their job. Make your intake manifold long runners so you are making all your HP at low rpms. Have about 600 cfm on your carburation. If you go to big you lose low end. Notice the theme here everything is made to make the engine make its power down low. Roy
/6 with a 903 3speed is what I ran. never had an issue with the tranny. pulled it out of a dart and put it in the hamb car. no rebuild, etc.
dirt track racers run stock 3spd sags all season long under much worse situations with much more hp, bigger tires, maybe even more weight. And they hold up fine. Just make sure it's not wore out or broken to begin with and a steel case... not the aluminum.
Thanks, Roy good tips.The 235 seems pretty easy to find since they were available for many years. Do you know the years and apps for the 261? I've also seen several multi-carb manifols at swap meets too. Are you suggesting building a steel tubing intake? It would be cheap enough too.
261 IIRC 1954-1963 (if you count the Canadian ones). Came in trucks. They are able to be bored and stroked as well. You might check out the Webrodder 'Stovebolt Stroker' series, even though it winds up somewhat incomplete it shows the potential. Even stock with a few carbs and good pipes it should be a hoot though.
On the intake make it out of steel tubing unless you can TIG weld then make it out of aluminum. Make the plenum about 75% of the cubic inches of the engine. Stick a carb over each intake port and a balance tube of at least 1 inch between. You can just take a rectangular tube and make an intake with tubing down to the ports. Sixes don't work well with 4 barrels because you run rich on the center ports and lean on the end ports. A V-8 works well because you can make the runners near equal. If you go the 235 route be sure and get one with a full pressure oil system. That means 1954 powerglide engine or 1955 or newer. Get a cataloge from Patrick's in Arizona it has all the info you will need to get started. Search around and see if you can find a 261 because it will be a better engine. Hindman in the Hornets car runs one and he has beat me many times so it must be a good engine. It couldn't be Hiney's driving.Roy
You know Roy,, I'll try to get Old6 to post the pictures of my manifold on here too.. Two different directions to go by..
The class is a spin off from the HAMB. Rules are here: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=299965
When you open the HA/GR (HAMB GAS RAIL) forum, there is a "sticky" on the first thread in the list. That thread is called HA/GR Rules.
Those look like some early sixties Rochesters? Why the plenums under each carb? Seems like they would flow better just straight into the tubes? One thing I didn't mention is that I don't have a giant pile of "leftovers out back" so I'll have swap and buy most of this rig. So buying the right stuff first will save some money. I found a 59 Chevy 2ton FB on a farm near here. It is a six and runs too - None of my old Motor Repair manuals covers big stuff. What am I looking for to establish it as a 261 ci? And thanks again to all - this getting very interesting.
If it's the original motor, should be a 261. I copied this info off the net: The Forgotten 261 Six Cylinder Between 1954-62, Chevrolet produced their famous full oil pressure 235 cubic inch six cylinder in trucks and it soon proved to be one of the greats among engines. However, at the same time a lesser known "big brother" to this base engine was being used. This was the quality built 261 cubic inch six cylinder! This 261 was available only in 2 ton (6000 or C60 series) trucks and school buses. During it's early years (1954-57) it was an extra cost option above the standard 235 six cylinder. In 1958-62 (the 261 now had a full flow remote oil filter) it became standard in the 2 ton chassis up to 19,000 pounds gross weight. Above that Chevrolet substituted a V-8. This larger six was not offered in US cars, however there was an exception in Canadian built full size Pontiacs. Their base engine, also produced only in Canada, was the 261 not the V-8 as in the US. This provided basic power, great dependability, and better gas mileage. Basically, this larger engine was a 235 with the same crankshaft but GM engineers made various modifications to give it extra strength and horsepower. It's standard bore diameter increased from 3-9/16 inches to 3-3/4 inches. The connecting rods were heavier and attached to increased diameter piston wrist pins. Its higher lift cam shaft, for better breathing, was shared only with the early 235 six cylinder Corvette. A modified larger Rochester carburetor was also a 261 only feature. Unfortunately most of these larger sixes have long since had their original Rochesters replaced with 235's and therefore do not perform to their full potential. In pure big truck form the 261 has a larger thermostat housing holding a double acting thermostat. This is designed to circulate water through the block and head before the thermostat opens to allow hot water into the radiator. Thus, no internal steam hot spots during warm ups, especially in winter. This is particularly important with very cold coolant. Vital engine spots can become very hot before the total coolant becomes hot enough to open a normal thermostat on the front of the block. Watch for the "Captain's Bars!" The 261 has two pairs of parallel raised 3/4 inch long bars cast in the block. This is not seen on a 235 except 1954. One pair is above the starter and the second pair is at the top middle of the left side of the block very close to the head. See photos below. The one exception is the early 261 produced in 1954 to mid 1955. It has only one "Captain Bar" above the starter but keeps the pair on the left side.
Hi Fritz. The way to tell a 261, the first thing most are in trucks with douley wheels the next is that it looks just like a 235. on the side of the block about six to nine inches to the rear are a couple of raised straight bars about 3/4 to an inch long configured like captain's bars. but the easiest way is to look at the oil lines on the left side of the block. These lines are about a half inch line, on a 235 these lines are maybe 3/8 in. The might be captains bars on the left side also, but on and old greasy motor the oil lines are the easiest
The idea is to make the engine think it has fuel only coming at it when the valve opens, when in reality it is coming at it all the time. To make the pulses seem like a steady stream you need a plenum to stop the reverberation in the intake. If you make it too big then you lose the force of the incoming charge, if you make it too small, everytime the valve closes part of the charge backs up towards the carb. If you have an engine that runs at 2000 rpm this doesn't matter but if you are running it above 4000 this becomes a real issue because of the short time span between the opening and closing of the valves. This is why fuel injection is so good the fuel is directed at the valve, it doesn't need to be atomized and carried with the air. I am no engineer but I work with some pretty knowledgable people who build injection systems. This is what I have been told. It seems to work on my car and I have seen some really impressive numbers on the dyno. Roy
"I'm no engineer..." 'coulda fooled me! Kinda like a scuba regulator - so's you don't just blow up like a balloon! Great info, RandMan - I'll head out there tomorrow morning with a scraper and flashlight. But If I drag this beast home my wife will just crap.
Took me a couple (OK, several) tries to get'em edited and addressed right. I put'em up in your temporary thread HERE. Gonna have to teach you how to do it sometime, it ain't all that hard if I learned it. "To make the pulses seem like a steady stream you need a plenum to stop the reverberation in the intake." Yeah, the standing wave problem was always a pita on the log manifolds. Another way to address it is to put enough stack above the carb to keep it from effecting the venturi.
Okay, this is a re-post from my other HA/GD thread on here. I had never seen the Midnight Oil Special (honest). But when I started laying out a HA/GR car I just wasn't happy with the look or the "sittin' up in space" design of the old cars. I still have things to do in life. So I roughed out this idea. Not exactly to scale - and I know the pipes are on the wrong side but I wanted to show the layout. Are you guys okay with this concept? Still has square tube frame, etc. I guess a 'glass body is out of the question? As for the "stock rear axle" - hey its a 4x4 off-set front axle (kinda) ;/ Sorry for small pics - I need some learnin' on how to post those nice big ones.
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