Also it is only the base that is changing for the time being so you are still dealing with the same primers and clears as before. So your neighbours will probably smell it.
thats correct. its really not a big deal of a change. the stuff sprays great. it just needs airflow to flash. so garage guys might have a tuffer time. but technically it should be in a booth anyway. not that i dont paint in open conditions. but a nice complete should be in a booth.
Thanks for your answers Sik and K13. I'm probably a few years away from painting since I have tons of other tasks ahead, but I wanted to get a handle on the feasibility of painting it myself. I am extremely meticulous and am sure I would have to pay a professional a pretty penny to get the results I want. My landlords came over yesterday and they shit a brick when they saw the "Sanford and Sons" look my place was taking on, so pissing off the neighbors with paint fumes is out of the question. I may be mistaken, but don't they have water based clears also? I thought they explained how to use this on an episode of Musclecar.
there are waterbased clears goin on in europe i believe, but not at the level to take over urethane clear. even if there is, it will more then like have isocynates in it, and thats the dangerous stuff in clear. if u have any doubts, rent a booth! only a couple hudnred bucks for a day.
Re: paint booths..A lot of the big AF Bases had auto hobby paint booths that you could use free and stay as long as you didn't hold anybody up. Don't know if they are still available..know any A.F. guys?
You mean as in Luke AFB?? I do remember hearing about that when i grew up in OH near Wright-Patt AFB, but I haven't heard that lately. I rent a booth from a guy near downtown Mesa sometimes- $150 a day. Felix at Rodriguez Auto Body.
Bill Van Dyke, that is good to hear. I live near Travis AFB and my girlfriend was active duty a few years ago and she has taken me on base a couple times. Sadly though, I think her military I.D. will expire before I'm ready to paint.
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone mention protecting your lungs. If you use a base/clear system, you NEED to use a fresh-air system that not only supplies air to breathe, but that covers your eyes as well. Anytime you are spraying a product that's catalyzed with isocynates, you need a fresh air supply to protect you from isocynate poisoning. That means epoxy primers as well. Isocynate is oderless and tasteless and can enter your body through membranes such as the ones in your eyes. It affects the nervous system and if you expose yourself often enough, it will kill you. Dead. Forever. I know lots of guys who say, "so what? Gotta go sometime!" with all the balls they can muster. I can tell you that when it does catch up with them, it's a different story. Look into breathing systems on autobodydepot.com before you ever open a can of hardener. It's cheaper than a funeral...
most epoxies dont have iso's in them. its not mandatory to have a fresh air. they are nice and all, but they are a pain to paint with. for those who dont paint much, a new cartridge charcoal mask would be fine. ull find most painters who work in crash shops dont wear fresh air either. if u have a nice booth with nice flow and the exposure is low, its not the worst thing in the world.
I use House of Kolor, and anytime I add any KU-series catalyst, I know I need the fresh-air system. That includes from the time I mix to the time I leave the booth. Isos are also carried by your clothing, so if you're not wearing a paint suit, you're carrying the isocynate home to your family. As for copying the safety methods of crash shops, please tell me you're kidding. I don't use the "cave-it-and-pave-it" method of getting metal straight, and I don't look to them for safety issues. I have seen people spray in shorts, and even with no respirator at all, but that doesn't make it right. Granted, a modern downdraft booth greatly reduces your exposure, but for the guy at home, shooting in your garage, it's a good idea to wear the right protection. Yes, it's a pain in the ass dragging around two hoses, but it beats risking my life over a period of years. Death IS the worst thing in the world, in my lowly opinion.
I actually redid a 56 f100 in highschool and it had a couple jobs on it. Had a nice lacquer job on it, as i saw 4 years before that. Someone shot an okay job over that, i got the truck to redo and when it was all primed i went to blow a chip out a whole shit load of my primer and the previous job blew down to lacquer. Asked my buddys dad thats been doing high end stuff for 20 years or so and he said that hes run into it acting like it had never been sanded when a modern job had been sprayed over it. The lacquer looked as if it had never been sanded....just my .02
I really recommend single stage if your a novice. Its a shitload easier to learn on. As long as its a solid color your going to...
crash painters are exposed to more iso's then anyone. i dont care what there methods of painting are, but the see more isos in a day then most all week. if there is a proper booth, with low exposure, a charcoal mask with fresh filters is good enuff. where is the compressor for the fresh air? i bet its real lose to the area of where u are spraying, and just reflows the isos back in the fresh air line. im not saying to not wear spray suit, gloves, head sock, respirator with new carts and even glasses or a full mask. the guys doing it at home probably dont paint much either. im not saying isos are good or anything. i avoid as much exposure as i can also anyway. it just depends on the situation i guess.
[QUOTE} im not saying to not wear spray suit, gloves, head sock, respirator with new carts and even glasses or a full mask. the guys doing it at home probably dont paint much either. im not saying isos are good or anything. i avoid as much exposure as i can also anyway. it just depends on the situation i guess.[/QUOTE] Ok, now I gotta say something.....that's just plain stupidity! There is NO arguement about the toxicity of isos. They ARE EXTREMELY bad for your health.For some people, only a small bit of exposure is enough to send them to the hospital with respratory problems. Other people take more exposure, and a very rare few might not have problems with moderate exposure...just like everyone who smokes doesn' get lung cancer....but most do! You have to remember that there are a LOT of young, inexperienced people here on the board. If they read something like that, they might not be inclined to take the proper precautions wwhen they paint...cause you said so! You shouldn't even HINT that using modern paints isn't harmful, and you shouldn't take the maximum amount of saftey precautions you can. In another thread, you also said that epoxies have no isos. That is true, but you are implying that epoxies are not dangerous. Again, totally UNTRUE! Epoxies affect the body in different ways, but are just as toxic as isos to human beings. They are a "sensitizer" which means that the first exposure to them doesn't harm you. But it affects the body anyway, and makes you more sensitive to it at a later time. Now some people can go for many, many exposures to it without a problem, then all of a sudden it will hit them like a ton of bricks! The way it affects them is different for different people, but very dangerous all the same. So to all you beginner painters: This shit is dangerous,. so be carefull. Read up on all the precautions of whatever paint you're using, and follow them to the "T", no matter what any other self-proclaimed experts tell you!
Thank You! I spent a bunch of time reading on the affects of ALL painting health problems, since I wanted to live a while longer. Did you know that if you use lacquer thinner on a rag (as in to clean your gun) that it takes six seconds for that lacquer thinner to be absorbed into your skin and reach your kidneys? That's scary, since I'd rather not expose my organs to thinner and at last count I only had a couple kidneys. Another test one of my airbrush artist buddies told me about was shown to him by a guy at a Craig Fraser seminar: the guest tooka random guy from the audience, had him take off one shoe and sock, then cut a garlic in half and asked the guy to hold it against his foot. Within two minutes, the guy could taste garlic in his mouth! Your whole body is connected, so just getting thinner, or epoxy paint, or clear on your hands doesn't just affect your hands, it affects every part of your body. The part that bothers me is not someone ignoring their own health and not wearing the proper protection, I think suicide ought to be legal. But what happens when a guy who has purposely rejected safety for a long period of time gets isocynate poisoning? Well, he gets a lawyer and sues the paint industry! It's the American way, right? Do yourself a favor no matter who you are, beg ,borrow or buy whatever safety equipment you can when you handle paint.
Ok, now I gotta say something.....that's just plain stupidity! There is NO arguement about the toxicity of isos. They ARE EXTREMELY bad for your health.For some people, only a small bit of exposure is enough to send them to the hospital with respratory problems. Other people take more exposure, and a very rare few might not have problems with moderate exposure...just like everyone who smokes doesn' get lung cancer....but most do! You have to remember that there are a LOT of young, inexperienced people here on the board. If they read something like that, they might not be inclined to take the proper precautions wwhen they paint...cause you said so! You shouldn't even HINT that using modern paints isn't harmful, and you shouldn't take the maximum amount of saftey precautions you can. In another thread, you also said that epoxies have no isos. That is true, but you are implying that epoxies are not dangerous. Again, totally UNTRUE! Epoxies affect the body in different ways, but are just as toxic as isos to human beings. They are a "sensitizer" which means that the first exposure to them doesn't harm you. But it affects the body anyway, and makes you more sensitive to it at a later time. Now some people can go for many, many exposures to it without a problem, then all of a sudden it will hit them like a ton of bricks! The way it affects them is different for different people, but very dangerous all the same. So to all you beginner painters: This shit is dangerous,. so be carefull. Read up on all the precautions of whatever paint you're using, and follow them to the "T", no matter what any other self-proclaimed experts tell you![/quote] i never hinted that modern paint isnt harmful. any airborne paint is bad. some worse then others. i never hinted to not wear protection. i suit up every time i paint. gloves, spray suit, respirator with fresh carts. everything. i airbrush with a respirator 95% of the time.
not everyone has an access to a fresh air system. not everyone knows how to properly set one up and use it. it does more harm if its not setup properly. alot of amateurs arent gunna know how to set up that, or even the proper way to protect themselves. but if they wear a spray suit, fresh respirator, gloves. that is pretty much the norm. if your gunna get sensitized to iso's its gunna happen from the littlest amount.
As with everything, Common Sense applies, but....... The levels of isocyanates in automotive paints is hardly something that will kill you immediately, or even bring on some sort of illness. I worked in several rough old bodyshops in the late eighties/early nineties, when Epoxy primer and Catalyzed Enamels Urethanes/ Polyurethanes were in full use. The most I ever saw anyone use- that included myself- was a disposable 3M Paint Mask (I didn't say "particle mask"). This is in shops where there was alot of material sprayed - every day. I still remember this one old cat that used to pull his mask down far enough to let a cigarette hang out of his mouth while he was spraying. No lie. He often had overspray on his lips and teeth. Most people's immediate reaction to paint/primer has to do with the airborn solvents (VOC's) and aromatic hydrocarbons that they end up smelling and inhaling. It's doubtful that you'll have an immediate negative reaction to isocyanates. I'm quite sure that it can accumulate in your body and be carcenogenic at some point, though. Safety is not a hugely important issue at alot of independent bodyshops // paint manufacturers know this. If iso's were that toxic- you would be hearing about all sorts of deaths and lawsuits. But a smart approach is better safe than sorry- every time, and anyone advocating for your safety deserves a listen.
Guys can we not have this discussion again. I was once one of the aforementioned dumb kids that sprayed all the time with no protection. Nothing ever happened to me but I finally wised up. From the time I start mixing to the point where I exit the booth, my mask stays on. I wear long sleeves and long pants if not a suit. I'm still not doing it the proper way, but I understand the risks. Bottom line. The shit is dangerous, protect yourself as best you can or don't spray, period.
not only does a spray suit keep your paint clean, u dont get all sticky. thats one of the reasons i started wearing the paint suit.
The biggest problem that I see with Zookeepers advice is exactly what sik kreations mentioned. For a guy painting at home his fresh air supply in a fresh air system (if he had one) will be from his compressor that 99% of the time is going to be sitting in the same garage that he is painting in which instantly makes that system far more dangerous to use that a charcoal filtered respirator as you will be pumping all of the contaminated air right into your system.
thank you. even if it is outside the garage, chances are its still getting iso contamination in the air! it takes alot of money to get a fresh air going properly. not these 5 or 600 dollar units that are sold. i was told that a new p95 charcoal mask has 4 hour protection from stopping isos completely. then after the charcoal isnt as sticky and isos start to get by. if u buy a new resipirator for one job, and wear a spray suit and gloves, and even glasses if u want. ur not seeing much exposure.
I think its 4 hours at stopping 95% of the contamination. No charcoal can is going to stop 100% of it. But I will say its the next best defense. I always change my canisters after each job. And I stay outside between coats. Thats good advice.
Charcoal filters stop exactly 0% of isocynates. You are free to use whatever you feel like, hell, aim the gun at your eyes for all I care. But don't try to tell anyone that you can get away with it because you did it for years. I know lots of guys that ride motorcycles in shorts, too, but that don't make it right.
i got the info directly from 3m tech on a 1 and half hour phone call about a 3m papr i bought to try out after giving up with hoses from a fresh air.
hell ya, if im not in a booth i walk out. i usually clear before i leave the shop so i dont have to stay around it.
u dont have to be an ass. and say aim it @ my eye. im glad u care about safety, but i will tell u that hardly anyone uses a fresh air system in the trade. and the ones that do have the proper setup.
Given the toxicity and impending legislation regarding conventional solvent based paints, I hope you all don't mind if I steer this conversation towards water base... It seems like the main downsides to water based and water borne that I hear about are 1.) Requires more air flow and heat to cure 2.) Requires more quantity to cover a car 3.) Different technique, more difficult to learn Besides those, are there any other notable detractions to think of? I am still evaluating the possibility of setting up a canopy booth and painting at home. I have a 2-stage 240V 60 gallon air compressor and a couple suction feed guns. One is a Binks and the other is a Craftsman. The AAC technical application guide recommends a 1.2mm tip size with 35-40 psi-- it doesn't mention anything about a specific make or model gun to use. Is there any reason why my air supply and my guns wouldn't work with AAC paints? Thank you all in advance.
If what you have is basically solid, stripping to bare metal is an exercise. Block to a solid level foundation and shoot it. 'Best way' is opinion. Base/clear is a 4-5 year deal, with peeling and re-do will be in the works anyhow, unless you are going to park it inside out of the sun for most of the year.
The Jalopy Journal
