ive got some rust holes in my car that i want to fix pretty soon normally i would cut the rust out and weld in new peices but with my new location i dont have the facilities to do this or the money to pay some one to so now im considering using a body filler. So which is the best to use for this application? they are holes mostly on the rockers and lower rear fenders. also i remeber reading one about a metal based filler does anyone know any thing about that? back home (in wisconsin) ive seen metal rust under body filler cracking it off and leaving the repair worse than it was. ive heard this was caused by the salt on the roads. is this some thing that might be a problem in california with the ocean? and are certain brands more prone to this than others?
First of all use a body filler that is waterproof. If it doesn't say waterproof on the can, it isn't! Body fillers are polyester or other polymer based and some have aluminum filings in them,All-Metal for example.
I'd fibergl*** the holes shut. Sandblast the area completely clean, seal the bare metal w/epoxy, and then gl*** over that. Etch the fibergl*** resin with 36 when dry, and use duraglas over top- move up to 80 and then plastic filler. Fibergl*** done correctly will last a way LONG time. Epoxy primer and undercoat the back side of the repair and you'll never worry about it again.
In this case there is only on way to do it right, and that is to cut and replace. Other than that, I wouldn't ever think of using filler to fix rust holes. Fibergl*** would be the next best thing in the way 58Fridge described, but I still wouldn't count on it lasting forever.
Plan on your repair as only being temporary as filler is only meant to fill dents and every old paint job that I have ever had to redo that had filler over the rust holes rotted back out no matter what they did to it.
I'd just leave the rust holes ,until i could fix it right.By "right" i mean cut it out and weld in a new piece of sheet metal .You're just spinning your wheels any other way ,on a rust repair thats gunna see any type of moisture in the future .The rocker on my 56 that was repaired with gl*** cloth and kitty hair.Whoever did the job did it correctly (ground to bare metal ,ruffed up the surface ,etc.) ,and the garbage still came loose at the bottom.Not trying to sound like a perfectionist here ,cuz im not.If there was an easier way to fix it i would do it myself.Only way to end rust forever is to cut it out ,and seal your repair from the back side ...
If you plan on keeping the car then fix it right. The right way is to cut it out and weld in new metal. Don't half *** it, it won't last.
fibergl*** ?? metal filler???? dem boys dont knowe whut da talken bout i alwayz usee the goood stufe, duct tape then bondo , but dont be goin' over an inch thick on duh bondo afta that it'll crack.
I'm for cutting it out and if you can't weld where you are, pop rivets work good. Here's a rocker panel I did in a weekend. I did the rocker under the door one day, the cowl the next. Before and after. I'll weld it, someday. Right now I'm haveing too much fun driving to finish it off. I'll rosettee the cleco holes, but countersunk pop rivets would do good too. And a HELL OF A LOT LESS WORK than scabbing off rust and doing the bondo routine.............
I agree with what your teaching here and its best to metal finish your welds ,but its not neccasary in my opinion on the average low buck car.Not to argue with you cuz your right but i dont want to scare the guy into not trying to repair it with a steel patch.If i were building a show only car that was gunna be a lazer straight rotiss. build ,than metal finish would be the way to gn a car thats gunna be driven and see road rash ,parking lot dings,etc , i see nothing wrong with using a skim coat of filler over welds .If applied and mixed correctly a thin skim coat will last as long as the paint will .Just my opinion .I would rather see someone weld a new piece of metal in and use a skim coat of filler ,than plug a rustout with bondo and gl***.Im no bondo slinger and less is always best ,but it has its place .Bondo got a bad rap because of people missusing it ...
Best Body filler of all? - Epoxy. Go ahead, check it out. Be sure to check of shrinkage rates, water absorbtion rates, Elongation % to failure, adhesion, and impact resistance. And - if you get the right epoxy, will weight 20-30% less than that polyester bondo stuff. Drawbacks: 10 times more expensive! 24 hours to sanding. But, just think - how much do people spend on their engines? Then does $200 worth of the best body filler not make sense on your car? That's not to say epoxy over a pile of rust will work --- it won't. But after you've done the real repairs, why cover it with the 'B' word
Like the song says, Rust never sleeps, without cutting out the affected area it will continue under the filler and paint. The best course might just be to leave it till you are able to do a proper repair.
Why waste your valuble time doing the job half way.. a Mig 110 mig welder is cheap.. even a flux core welder.. Do the job right the first time.. you wont be doing it again in a months time.. you could be doing another part of the car with out going back to the beginning.. a decent cheap elder will run you 250.00 at the least.. your times worth more than that..
There is a another option here.... Adhesives are all the rage in the auto body repair industry - they are rapidly taking the place of welding in panel replacement. I've been to a seminar on this and it appears to have a lot of promise. In your case, cut out the rust to sound metal. Clean the area well around the cut-out, then cut and shape a patch that overlaps the hole by at least half an inch. You will need to knock the area around the hole down so that your patch ends up flush. Then glue the patch in place per the manufacturer's directions. Done right, you'll just need at little filler to blend out the edges. 3m and PPG make the adhesives. Check with any auto body supply shop.
I have seen a few vids on what your talking about .I have heard that adhesive is some strong stuff.Never tried it though .Maybe someone on here should do a tech on it .Im real curious to see it done on an old ride ...
if you want to fix rust with bondo buy the cheap stuff since you will be redoing it on a regular basis.
Thanks for all the responses they have been helpful to answer some posts. The car is a 1960 dodge seneca. Also I have done rust repair by making patch panels and welding them in before I just have no means to use a welder right now even if I were to buy one I can't use it where I am. However, henryj429's idea about adhesives is something I haven't considered, I think I'll be looking into that. It sound's better then filler and is an alternative to welding.
cut the rust out go to supermarket and buy wax paper, buy naval jelly, fiber gl*** cloth , saturate cloth apply cloth over repair area and smooth out with wax paper when dry sand and coat with body filler a friend of mine did his rockers this way he said it lasted for years.. id trust him with my life .. john
I have been using panel bond adhesives for about 12 years on collision jobs and hail jobs. It works really well. I was shown a demonstration video when I was working at a dealership that took 2 quarter panel replacements on the same model car. One was done the traditional way of drill spotwelds and plug weld in the new panel with the seam either **** welded or overlaped according to preferance. In crash tests the panel applied with adhesive was stronger with less seperation than the welded panel. I have been putting on quarters and roofs ever since. Most manufaturers have been using this method on minivans for years. It ****s if you have to replace a panel that has been put on this way.The only way to loosen the bond is with a torch. If you don't have access to a welder this is the best method to use. Prepare you're problem area just as if you are going to weld. Grind, or blast the area until you are into good metal. Cut the bad, make a patch panel at least 1/4-3/8 bigger than the hole. If you can, flange the patch panel 1/8 bigger than the hole you cut so that when placed in from the backside, it should be close to flush. I personally use the Norton Speed Grip. It comes in set times from 30 seconds to 15 minutes. Depending on where you're patch is, clamp it or brace it into position. You don't want to sqeeze all the adhesive out when you clamp it. Usually most adhesives take aprox. 24 hours to cure. After it cures, you can hammer and dolli until it is to you're liking for a glaze coat of filler. This is a tried and tru repair method used in shops around the world on complete panels, so I don't think it to be a wrong way to do it. If done correctly, you will never have to address this again. I have a car in the shop that needs a few patch panels when it comes back from the sand blasters. I will do a couple with adhesive and get some pics.
Panel Bonding adheisive works reall well,, it is a two part product.. We use that all the time to adhere new panels to old panels.. and then spot weld the proper areas.. it can be done.. but you still have to clean the metal. make a new patch.. glue it, and tightly hold it in place till it dries.. Most Body shops use it.
Sorry, forgot. Check you're local auto paint stores. Orielley's even carries paint supplies. You will have to ask for it. Norton's is called speed grip. I think 3m's is called panel bond. The norton is cheaper by a couple of bucks, but both esentially the same product.
Resin technology has come a LONG way. The latest accepted technique to attach quarter panels in a collision repair environment is with a 2-part epoxy adhesive. Why? because it's probably almost as strong as metal in most ways (tension, sheer, etc), but doesn't bring on the same brittleness and distortion ***ociated with welding. Polyester resins (Plastic filler and fibergl*** resin) have also gotten better-way better. The problem with durability is people using them wrong. I've done ALOT of bodywork in different environments, and if you protect the repair area from moisture it will last indefnitely. I have also been through this a million times-- and i've done a ton of bodywork over some absolute top-shelf fabrication work. Unless you are an expert fabricator who is skilled with a TIG, ****-welding two pieces of sheetmetal together with a MIG usually causes enough distortion to necessitate the use of MORE plastic filler. Baby-ing a MIG weld on sheetmetal takes forever, and inevitably produces all kinds of pinholes. Anyone who tells you differently doesn't really know. Of course, pinholes in welds are usually filled in the same way that rust holes are (with some kind of polyester or epoxy resin), and remain intact indefinitely. It's all just a matter of preference. Ultimately, a welded patch will stand up better to vibration and impact, and look alot nicer on the inside of a trunk or hood.......but the difference in durability is in a comparison of years. And Plastic filler is actually-- pretty heavy. if you need some holes filled so you can throw down some suede and get on the road- there's NO shame is using fibergl*** resin or duragl***. it will last as long as you need it to if done correctly. If you are building a once-in-a-lifetime car that will get a $60,000 paint job, use metal fabrication.
Just because a body shop uses this panel bonding adhesive method does not mean it is the right way. Body shops do things differently for a reason: get it done faster to get it out the door and more profit. Insurance companies force the issue, they don't want to pay to have it done right. Not bashin' body shops but they don't do it the right way period, unless you want to pay, then find one with some well experienced bodymen.
Panel adhesives are great for what they are designed for. They are not really designed to do what you want to do. They will work and the patch will be held in place very well but if you are looking for a finish that will not show the repair this is not the way to go. The adhesives will expand and contract a different rates than the metal and they will cause the repair area to map and show the lines where the two panels meet. There is a reason that adhesives are used on seams in the collision industry and this is it. If you are just trying to do a quick fix and are not really concerned if the repair will show through the paint then they will work fine but the repair will eventually show no matter what you do.
Body shops use them because car manufactures use them. Almost all quarter panels, door skins and roofs are glue on new cars these days. You are right it is not the right way for this type of repair but it is right the way body shops use them.
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